Maine: The Haters Won

Amazes me (4.00 / 3)

It just amazes me that there are so many Americans willing to say, "If you're the wrong kind of American, you aren't allowed a marriage license."

But I agree that it's just a matter of time.  I think that people twenty or thirty years from now will see this with the same bewilderment I'm having now.  Though on the other hand, I'm now more inclined to think that we'll probably have some other embedded prejudice to deal with even then.  "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

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by: Vis Unita Fortior @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 05:10:23 AM CST

Actually, you don't have to be a citizen to (0.00 / 0)

get married and have it registered.  Foreigners can do it.
Which makes me wonder about Barack Obama's father's status.  I don't think he was here long enough to become a citizen and I think marrying an American is no longer enough to do it.

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by: hannah @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:04:51 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This is a good time to appreciate our own legislators. (4.00 / 9)

It was close in Maine statewide, but in many individual counties it was a blowout against marriage equality.

It took real courage and strength of principle for our legislators to adopt marriage rights here.

Thank you.

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by: elwood @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 05:41:47 AM CST

Roman Catholic chuches in Maine. (4.00 / 6)

It pains me deeply to think of the role they played in denying social justice.

Especially as I look back on my own Catholic upbringing, and think about how I first learned about gay/lesbian issues through scandals within church walls. In the self-same walls where I learned about social justice.

I remember, e.g., when one of the teachers in my Catholic high school was "sent away". Why?, I wondered.

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by: Dean Barker @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 05:50:44 AM CST

What's the process (4.00 / 3)

of revoking their tax-empt status for collecting money for overtly political purposes during services?

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by: FrankLloydMike @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 06:07:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I Feel Your Pain (4.00 / 1)

I was raised in the RC Chuch. At the age of 17 my skepticism lead to atheism and a life of rational inquity.

It doesn't surprise me that an organization filled with men who tacitly condoned the cover up of widespread child molestation would be hypocrtical enough to turn around and support this hateful legislation. The jackals who run this enterprise should be ashamed of themselves.

"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." -- Molly Ivins  

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by: The Grand Panjandrum @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 06:20:34 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Ah, the joys of rational iniquity (0.00 / 0)

(Just kidding... I'm sure you meant rational inquiry.)

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by: Vis Unita Fortior @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:15:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I hope he DID Mean "Rational Iniquity" (0.00 / 0)

A much more interesting prospect!

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by: Tim Ashwell @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:19:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Also Christian Fundamentalists (0.00 / 0)

Dean,

Back in April I wrote this comment on the large number of Christian fundamentalists in Maine, especially in rural areas. I'm sure they played a big role in this tragic defeat.  Check out the comment below. I think that may explain "part" of what happened last night.

http://bluehampshire.com/showComment.do?commentId=68006

The next question is, what can proponents in Maine do now? Can they vote on the issue again?

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by: NH Ex-pat @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:04:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What A Disgrace (4.00 / 1)

I can't imagine how crushing this must be to same-sex couples in Maine. Their neighbors have just told them they are not worthy of the same rights most of us cherish. This is a very sad morning for any decent person.


"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." -- Molly Ivins  

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by: The Grand Panjandrum @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 06:11:23 AM CST

Well, a lot of people who are married recognize that (0.00 / 0)

marriage is a bundle of obligations. The right involved is the right to associate freely.  The law involved is the obligation of the state to deliver services (such as entering a partnership into the public records) equally.  Not only do lots of people like feeling special, many have not grown up with equality.
It was not so long ago that women weren't permitted to serve as agents of law enforcement or in the military.  

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by: hannah @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:59:27 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Could the DNC and the Obama administration have done more to help? (0.00 / 0)

Did they do anything, or just sit on the side?

Then DNC Chair Howard Dean did send money to the pro-marriage forces last year in California, albeit a little late. Today's DNC sent nothing.

Obama and the DNC could have helped use their GOTV apparatus and they could have issued messages that while not endorsing marriage, could have disputed many of the anti-marriage arguements.

Attorney General Holder said he didn't know enough about the referendum to make any comments. That is the best he could say - no way!!!!

There were reports yesterday that people in Maine were receiving emails from the DNC asking them to help Corzine and mentioned nothing about the marriage vote.

Were we abdandoned by our national party?

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by: Putney Swope @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 06:29:20 AM CST

Blame, if there is to be blame, belongs on the shoulders.. (0.00 / 0)

of the members of the LGBT community who failed to help with the effort in Maine.

It is telling when one of the loudest voices of complaint on the blogs and media about the lack of progress, posts on his facebook page on Monday morning that he is still wasted from a weekend of non-stop partying.

Maine needed more dollars and foot soldiers from our own community.

Democrats solve problems, Republicans sit and say no.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:51:04 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You ignored my question (0.00 / 0)

Clearly many people could have done more to defeat this resolution.

But it wasn't just members of the LGBT community and the wasted party boy that caused our defeat.

Specifically, what did the DNC and the Obama administration do to defeat this?

From what I read, the answer is not much.

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by: Putney Swope @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:44:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Two wars (0.00 / 0)

A shaky economy.

Legislation affecting one-sixth of the American economy, not to mention the health of all its citizens.

I don't mean to downplay the ballot initiative, but maybe the White House has its hands full.

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by: JimC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:50:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

It is time more of our community accepts some level of responsibility (0.00 / 0)

other than being Wednesday morning keyboard quarterbacks. (I am not referring to you, you have done a great deal over the years)

Democrats solve problems, Republicans sit and say no.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:44:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Why aren't you answering my question? (0.00 / 0)

You and the DNC cannot hide from it.

The coverup is always worse than the truth.

So please answer the question.

Are you saying the DNC and Obama administration did nothing? If not, what did they do?

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by: Putney Swope @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 13:02:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Cover up? (4.00 / 1)

What the hell are you talking about?

No, I am not going to discuss or reveal the inner workings of the DNC in a public forum and you know that.


Democrats solve problems, Republicans sit and say no.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 14:28:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Simply tell me what they did to help defeat Question One (0.00 / 0)

It was not meant as a trick question - read my first posting.

A simple 'yes they did...' or 'I don't know' or 'they could have done more...' would suffice.

But you refuse to answer my question.

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by: Putney Swope @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 14:35:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Why should the DNC help? (0.00 / 0)

Serious question. I agree with you that it would be nice, but should the DNC jump into state referendum battles?

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by: JimC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 15:15:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Why not (0.00 / 0)

At the very least the RNC was working to defeat marriage

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by: Putney Swope @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 21:59:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Let's Keep Focus... (4.00 / 5)

...on this sad morning, and realize that we're lucky we adopted marriage equality for New Hampshire last Spring, and that "protecting" our success will be quite possible come January.  

But we need lots of help.  A group of those of us who worked on House Bill 436 passage will be meeting on December 1st and December 15th to plan for fighting the repeal legislation, and we'll be doing a number of things between then and now.  

Our success on HB 436 came from always keeping our eyes forward and remembering that yesterday's vote was yesterday's vote, whether it was for us or not.  Tomorrow's vote is what we have to win.

We need the help of many, so those who want to join the cause -- we need you.  And, let's remember:  WE CAN DO THIS.  We did a few months ago; we can again.  

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by: Rep. Jim Splaine @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 06:41:46 AM CST

I'm an Optimist (4.00 / 4)

Not party, but age.  Polls showed this was a young-old issue, not a blue-red one.  Time is on our side.

Yesterday's result sucks, but this observation from Dean is the real story.  People under 40 understand that gay rights IS civil rights.

And to those backwards folks who think that gay marriage somehow "undermines" heterosexual marriage: When Newt Gingrich trades in two of his wives for younger and prettier editions, doesn't that do a hell of a lot more damage to the institution?

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by: Dartmouth Dem @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:11:40 AM CST

Better news from Washington State (4.00 / 3)

Seattle Times - "Supporters of gay rights were buoyed by first-day returns that showed Referendum 71 leading by a narrow margin Tuesday evening. The trends looked positive for the measure, which would expand the state's domestic-partnership law."

Referendum 71 was an attempt to repeal SB 5688, which grants state registered domestic partners in Washington all rights, responsibilities, and obligations granted by or imposed by state law on married couples. It's commonly referred to as the "everything but marriage" bill.

Though I'd like to see it as the everything, everything bill, upholding SB 5688 is extremely important right now.

For the most part, Washington votes by mail so it will be a couple of days before official results are in, but they're waiting on more ballot counts from supportive areas than the other, so folks are feeling good.

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by: geterdone @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:16:16 AM CST

the ads (4.00 / 1)

saying that "gay marriage" was going to be taught in schools were particularly affective in the rural areas. My daughter lives in Franklin County, and found that people there were scared by those ads. These are folks who are pretty traditional and tend to be conservative - who may not have any problem with gays getting married - but had a big problem with "gay marriage being taught in schools."

It will be interesting to see how the money trail shakes out.  

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by: susanthe @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:45:41 AM CST

Time conquers all things, (0.00 / 0)

Especially political positions whose voter base is rapidly aging.

--
"Act as if ye have faith and faith shall be given to you." -Aaron Sorkin

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:05:17 AM CST

it wasn't just the old people (0.00 / 0)

who were buying it. I had to talk a 25 year old out of voting yes.  

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by: susanthe @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:14:01 AM CST

[ Parent ]

And I know 20-year-olds who voted for McCain. (4.00 / 1)

But two thirds of them didn't.

(Not that anyone should ever be voting on gay marriage, because majorities don't have the right to take away the rights of individuals or minorities, hence the Constitution)

--
"Act as if ye have faith and faith shall be given to you." -Aaron Sorkin

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:21:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

you're missing the point, Douglas (0.00 / 0)

the message the haters used was highly effective on people of all ages.

That's a lesson to learn for next time.  

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by: susanthe @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:03:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Show me exit polls. (0.00 / 0)

With every generation, America has gotten better on issues of freedom and equality. One volunteer's anecdotes about one close fight in one off-year election in one state doesn't shake my confidence in consistent polling and a mountain of anecdotal evidence from living in this country.

Harvey Milk believed that people who know that they have a gay friend or family member are more likely to believe in gay rights.  Go to nearly any college campus in America and you'll see that it's homophobia, not homosexuality, that is socially unacceptable.   In my generation, everybody knows somebody.

--
"Act as if ye have faith and faith shall be given to you." -Aaron Sorkin

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:56:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

you're right Douglas (0.00 / 0)

silly me, thinking I know anything about this, seeing as how Maine is 15 minutes from my house, and I have family and friends all over the state. I'm certain that your experiences on college campuses are far more germane than ....any reality I may have experienced.

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by: susanthe @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:11:18 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I apologize. Thank you for talking down to me. (4.00 / 1)

Clearly, I was wrong to dismiss your anecdotal evidence as being no better than my anecdotal evidence, because of all the "reality" you've "experienced". Obviously, some demographics are not indicative of themselves, because the only votes that count are from The Real America, and those votes explain everyone else's irrelevant votes.

For someone who's not shy about making accusations of bigotry, your ageism is pretty blatant.

--
"Act as if ye have faith and faith shall be given to you." -Aaron Sorkin

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:39:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Susan can see Maine from her house. (4.00 / 1)

--
"Act as if ye have faith and faith shall be given to you." -Aaron Sorkin

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:33:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

and Douglas has never been there n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: susanthe @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:34:34 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You assume. (0.00 / 0)

As is the basis for everything you've said in this exchange.

--
"Act as if ye have faith and faith shall be given to you." -Aaron Sorkin

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:42:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

if you can't take it (0.00 / 0)

don't dish it out, youngster.  

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by: susanthe @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:50:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That's a great comeback, (0.00 / 0)

But it doesn't apply to anything I said.

I don't know or care how old you are.

--
"Act as if ye have faith and faith shall be given to you." -Aaron Sorkin

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:56:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The war is within reach (0.00 / 0)

We will lose a few battles along the way, but the tide of history favors us on this "issue" (someday, we won't call it that).

Meanwhile -- cheer up.

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by: JimC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:54:31 AM CST

I'm going to continue to insist that the framing of the issue is not correct. (0.00 / 0)

Voters in Maine on Tuesday overturned a law allowing same-sex couples to wed

Since marriage is between two people (as the tradition of the common law clearly attests), it's not a question of people being allowed to engage in an action to which they have a natural right.  The question is whether this mutual commitment is going to be honored and recognized--i.e. whether the state's obligation to treat all persons equally will be met.

People would like to be able to make people do what they want, but the only laws that are effective are those that prohibit certain injurious actions, and then they can only be "enforced" by punishment after the fact.  

We can't even force parents to care for their own children.  We can make it a law, but if they don't do it, the only effective response is to do it ourselves.  That's why we set up foster homes, etc.  Ditto for caring for aging parents.

But, what calls the whole ethic into question is that people who want other people to honor their obligations are keen to dishonor people who are actually doing it.  Which suggests that antagonism is the motive, not promoting familial obligations.

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by: hannah @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:50:59 AM CST