YouTube Wars: Shaheen vs. Shaheen

I have to say, though, that my favorite part (4.00 / 1)

is a few seconds into the first vid, when you see the Sprinter kind of, well, what the heck is he doing?

And is that Ken Blevens in the center?

birch, finch, beech

---

by: Dean Barker @ Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 21:58:06 PM CDT

I think Shaheen clearly wins this one... (4.00 / 2)

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 05:20:06 AM CDT

Wait a minute (0.00 / 0)

someone from a US Seanate computer has been editing Shaheen's wiki to emphasize her early support of the Iraq War?

Now, which Senate Office would be interested in doing that?

Haven't we played this game before in '06?  Is the sprinter getting advice from Tad?

Here's a hint: it didn't work.

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 05:26:22 AM CDT

Shaheen gets the Independent's.... (0.00 / 0)

Using the old Jeanne Shaheen quotes is an attempt by Republicans to make the Democratic primary go way too left for the general.  They want to cover their political problem by portraying Democrats as pacifists in the general.

Independent's want a candidate who will keep the country safe.  That really is what the polling says.  There is little doubt that Bush, and probably more Cheney, manipulated the intelligence.  But we tend to blame the administration more for manipulating intelligence, than those who made different choices based upon that bogus intelligence than they would have made had they had accurate intelligence.

The goal needs to be winning BOTH the primary and the general.  Republicans would love to run against candidates who they can portray as pacifists and not capable of making the tough choices needed to defend this country when that is appropriate.

They are praying that this contrast will work in the primary, and produce candidates who they can label as not up to keeping the country safe.  Candidates who have a record of making the tough choice to use force WHEN THEY BELIEVE it's necessary cannot be labeled that way.

Jeanne Shaheen is positioned not just to win the primary, she's positioned to win the general because she can't be labeled too weak to defend this country when that really is necessary.  And there are situations when that is necessary, Independent's certainly believe that.

The contrast they make using these old quotes will kill them in the general if it fails to take her out in the primary.  These quotes insulate her from a pacifist label.  They need the pacifist label to run against in 2008, not just in the Senate race, but the whole ticket.

Republican strategists want Nixon/McGovern type of races up and down the ticket.  That is their only hope of minimizing their losses in 2008.

---

by: nhpoliticscom @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 07:47:21 AM CDT

Wel Played (4.00 / 1)

but now quite.

First and foremost, Americans want elected officials who will get us out of Iraq.  Two thirds of us.

This Wiki-editing is seeking to emphasize the fact that Shaheen supported the Iraq War too.  This is an attempt to preemptively blur the distinction between Shaheen's stance on the war and Sununu's.

This is exactly what I am concerned about in a Shaheen candidacy, its her biggest weakness.

I know you support Shaheen.  You can try to spin her early Iraq war stance as much as you like.  But if you do it this way, it ain't gonna work.

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:08:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let me clerify: (4.00 / 2)

If Shaheen is going to run, she needs to do exactly what John Edwards did.

Shaheen needs to come out early and admit she was mistaken in her early support of the war, just as most Americans were, and explain her new anti-war stance.

Voters will probably be able to forgive her for making the same mistake they did.  However, If you try and say she war RIGHT in her early war support, and it shows her strength, you are only going to play into Sununu's tactic of blurring the distinction between them on the War.

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 11:14:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Right or wrong? (0.00 / 0)

It's not a right or wrong thing, at least that has nothing to do with my point.  I'm discussing political strategy.  They can't make Jeanne Shaheen a pacifist candidate to run against in the general.  That is the best Republican hope, to have a replay of Nixon/McGovern.

I'm not going to disagree with your two thirds number, only that it doesn't tell the whole story.  Two thirds may want to leave Iraq, but that number disperses greatly about how to do that. And that dispersion creates some political realities for anti-war Democrats.  The Republicans have recognized that and understand that if they can get Democrats to over-play their hand, they will do much better.

They won't be able to do that to Jeanne Shaheen. In the event that Jeanne Shaheen doesn't run, your candidate must insulate themselves against the "pacifist" charge; that the "Democrats won't keep the country safe in a dangerous world".

The clips of Jeanne Shaheen are intended to create the climate where Democrats over-play their hand.  I don't think their strategy will work in NH, but it may work very well in other places in the Country.

Disagree with me very carefully.  Just don't miscalculate.  The Republicans are counting on Democrats miscalculating.  That is their best hope.

---

by: nhpoliticscom @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 12:06:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

seriously (0.00 / 0)

I don't get why people are so afraid of admitting error, unless, well they don't think they were wrong.

---

by: Matt Stoller @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 15:26:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pesky Republicans (4.00 / 3)

I suspect that the Senate Republican caucus has someone on staff who is working internet sites, like Wikipedia and Youtube, to undermine Democratic candidates. It also is possible that it is someone on Sununu's campaign.  Who else would have kept copies of the 2002 NH debates? 

As I keep reminding people, there were people willing to commit felonies to elect John Sununu in 2002; they will throw in the kitchen sink to keep him in office in 2008.  If Sununu loses, the last Republican left standing in NH is Judd Gregg, and then you will have at least three incumbent  officials (Lynch, Hodes and CSP) who would be great candidates, not to mention other potential candidates who would match up well against Gregg.

So, expect more interesting developments; the Republicans will try to interfere with the Democratic primary, no matter who runs. They will do their best to set the candidates for the Democratic nomination and their supporters against each other, in the hopes that a divisive primary will encourage supporters of the defeated candidate(s) not to vote for the nominee. 

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

---

by: Kathy Sullivan @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 08:17:21 AM CDT

CSPAN (0.00 / 0)

I agree with Kathy on this point, it is impossible to find online a copy of that video the ShaheenSpeaks user posts. It is not available on the CSPAN website nor, any NH Based television studio website. Also online video from CSPAN is in Real Media Format which makes it almost impossible to record. And I don't think it was Tivo-d back in 2002. Obviously someone in DC who has access to copies of old CSPAN tapes posted this, it would be interesting to see where exactly in DC this person is located via their IP Address.

---

by: 2008NH @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 10:19:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Three different hands tweak Shaheen's bio? Or is it two? (4.00 / 3)

The shenanigans  with Shaheen's Wikipedia profile mentioned in the Concord Monitor came from three accounts with very different agendas.

The earliest of these, Nhdem,  emphasized Shaheen's support (in 2002) for Bush's Iraq policy and his tax cuts. Nhdem's goal seemed to be reducing Shaheen's chance of winning a Democratic primary.  Despite the pseudonym "Nhdem", however, the time pattern of these edits make it more likely that these edits came from the same source as the YouTube account "ShaheenSpeaks", and most likely from the same Washington, DC area computer that added a pointer to ShaheenSpeaks within a day after ShaheenSpeaks went up on YouTube.

Next to appear, "Granitedem" added a lot of material a later contributor identified as lifted straight from the DraftShaheen website. It could just as likely have been lifted from the nearly identical official biography at Harvard's Institute of Politics. It's a pretty common mistake for people who aren't familiar with Wikipedia policies to imagine somebody's "official" biography is an "encyclopedia-quality" source. Wrong--each of its many claims about Shaheen's achievements should be supported by published news stories written from a neutral point of view.

Finally, "Granitestater" attacks Shaheen from a right-wing point of view, claiming that Shaheen broke a no-new-tax pledge she made in 1996 by proposing a sales tax in 2001. I wasn't familiar with this issue at all, but I quickly discovered, using sources online, that during her campaign for governor in 2000 Shaheen made big news by refusing to renew that no-tax pledge.

Granitestater missed those online headlines but did have exotic sources of old oppo research from right-wing think tanks and a Union Leader editorial now long offline.

Granitestater and Nhdem may be the same Washington Republican astroturfer, using different accounts attack Shaheen from right and left.

On a more personal, Dean and Blue Hampshirites, I was thrilled to discover by reading this Blue Hampshire blogpost that the Concord Monitor considers me a "sort of" expert. Woo hoo! I emailed my family and immodestly blogged it as well!

Yours sort-of expertly,
Betsy

"Making trouble today for a better tomorrow" http://BetsyDevine.com/blog

---

by: Betsy Devine @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:28:37 AM CDT

You can add it to your (0.00 / 0)

phonejamming expertise. :)

birch, finch, beech

---

by: Dean Barker @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:44:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Betsy, (4.00 / 1)

you may want to take a gander at this comment from "Granitedem" in Open Left which bashes Steve Marchand.  Given that your research on the wiki "granitedem" suggests an astroturfer for Shaheen, I thought you might find it of interest.

They may not be connected at all, but the name struck me, combined with the content.

I'm starting to think the days of credible anonymous blogging are ending fast: too much fake grass out there.

birch, finch, beech

---

by: Dean Barker @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 19:26:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Some observations not worth putting up top, but FWIW: (0.00 / 0)

* The audio clip from '04 is the clearest expression yet on how the Gov. has evolved from 2002.

* I agree with Kathy that the first vid and the wiki-wacking is likely coming from the right, but it could also be the work of those on the left who are anti-war.  It's no secret that some of the things highlighted by ShaheenSpeaks are criticisms I've leveled as well.  Access to the vid, as well as presenting it without context and commentary though (lefties love to argue), as well as the wiki manipulation, speak much more to gaming the system for innocent viewers, something more likely to come from our current brand of Republican, imho.

* It is an undeniably smart strategy that when you are the biggest player in the room, you can afford to declare a candidacy later, all the while earning free media along the way.  The age of New Media is changing the rules on that a little, as can be seen by this development.  If Shaheen had declared earlier, there would be no issue, because we'd have her current Iraq position front and center.  But politicking abhors a vacuum, so we have this.

birch, finch, beech

---

by: Dean Barker @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:42:24 AM CDT

Oh dear... (0.00 / 0)

It looks like whoever posted these clips is starting to get exactly the kind of attention they wanted.

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 12:50:37 PM CDT

Did you notice... (4.00 / 1)

That Matt says Patrick Hynes steered him to the youtube videos?  I rest my case; Hynes is a rabid right winger who is vituperative in his hatred of all things Democratic. If Hynes is trying to turn the netroots off of Jeanne Shaheen, it is because he knows she is the best candidate to run against John Sununu.  Like I said, they will do anything to keep Sununu's seat.

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

---

by: Kathy Sullivan @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 13:23:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

shooting the messenger (0.00 / 0)

Kathy,

Once again, this kind of nonsense is beneath you.  Shaheen has a past, and she should answer for it.  In fact, lots of us were duped by our corrupt political system, so there's no shame in being wrong.  Shaheen just needs to admit it.

Of course, feel free to attack me as some sort of right-wing stooge.  I don't think any of this matters in a political sense, but it does in a moral sense.  If Shaheen doesn't learn her lesson, then Senator Shaheen is going to end up seeing a lot more people killed than necessary.

---

by: Matt Stoller @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 15:25:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I didn't say that! (4.00 / 1)

Matt, I did not say you were a right wing stooge.  My point was that Hynes, and other Republicans, will do what they can to cause trouble within our party.  Patrick Hynes must be laughing knowing that he has you and I fighting with each other! If anything, I am the stooge for falling into the trap!

Anyway, I do think that if you go to www.draftshaheen.org, you will see why I think Governor Shaheen will make a great, progressive senator.  I also think that if you look at her comments on Iraq in '04, you will see a diffwerent perspective.

 

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

---

by: Kathy Sullivan @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 15:52:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is she backing Hillary? (0.00 / 0)

seems like the perfect surrogate for Hillary

"time to ask Americans to be patriotic about something other than war"- John Edwards

---

by: inevitibility @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 14:07:30 PM CDT

No (0.00 / 0)

Gov. Shaheen isn't backing any presidential candidate, but I bet all the candidates - including Senator Edwards - would by very happy to have her support!

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

---

by: Kathy Sullivan @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 14:39:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not officially (0.00 / 0)

but her husband is co-chair of Clinton's NH Campaign.

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 14:55:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

well that's a surprise (0.00 / 0)

Wow, a fiscally conservative female hawkish Democrat who can't admit she was wrong on the war has a husband who backs Hillary Clinton.  I'm sure that any criticism of Shaheen on progressive grounds is entirely a right-wing plot, entirely.

---

by: Matt Stoller @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 15:28:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Honest progressive criticism of Shaheen... (4.00 / 2)

..is possible and entirely probable. There are other good candidates out there. May the best man, or the best woman, win.

Now, somebody is out there trying to damn Shaheen with tightly-edited soundbites from 2002--I see that as dishonest. Forgive me for wishing that something I dislike so much is coming, not from authentic NH progressives, but from the  Republican sneak-droids who have messed in Democratic primaries often before this.

As for me, I'm just a random blogger who happens to be "sort of" expert on the kind of astroturf PR that's been trying to warp Shaheen's Wikipedia article.

"Making trouble today for a better tomorrow" http://BetsyDevine.com/blog

---

by: Betsy Devine @ Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 16:42:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

that's what I thought (0.00 / 0)

I meant my comment as snark.....

"time to ask Americans to be patriotic about something other than war"- John Edwards

---

by: inevitibility @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:34:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You did? (0.00 / 0)

I got that, the first time, but snarkiness must yield to optimism and perkiness! 

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

---

by: Kathy Sullivan @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:41:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Making the Perfect the Enemy of the Good (4.00 / 1)

It's a damn shame that most Democrats can't meet your standard of ideological purity.  Jeanne Shaheen -- the first Democrat to hold statewide office in NH in a generation, a leader who expanded access to kindergarden and health care for children, and who made tremendeous strides in environmental protection and civil rights -- is obviously a bad progressive.  No matter how many times she has lambasted Bush/Cheney on Iraq, we can never forgive her. 

I'd like to build off this logic:

* Let's renounce Jon Tester and Jim Webb.  They oppose a ban on assault weapons, which are used by drug dealers to slay children in cities across America.  Who cares if they were able to take back the Senate?

* Let's condemn Al Gore and Dick Gephardt.  They were both opposed to abortion rights 30 years ago.  A pox on their houses!

* Let's destroy every one of our presidential candidates -- other than Dennis Kucinich, of course -- who refuse to allow gays and lesbians to marry. 

* And, of course, let's exorcise the memory of our 42nd President, William Jefferson Clinton.  True, he spread peace and human rights around the world, and fought for progressive policies on the homefront that shrunk the gap between rich and poor.  But he was a DLCer, the bastard!

Or, perhaps, we will recognize that electing Democrats -- even those that we agree with only 95% of the time -- is the only way we can change our state and our country for the better.  Defeating Republicans should be our priority, not eating our own.

---

by: Dartmouth Dem @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 12:12:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Come on: (4.00 / 1)

No matter how many times she has lambasted Bush/Cheney on Iraq, we can never forgive her.

We're not saying that.

All we're asking for is an apology for her earlier support, and a clear strong stand against the Iraq war.

You're building an argument against a straw man.

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 17:08:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No Strawman (4.00 / 1)

Her aggressive criticism of this administration on Iraq in 2004 should be more than sufficient.  It shows that, if elected, Jeanne Shaheen will fight to reverse the unconscionable damage that Bush and his fellow ideological cowboys have done to our moral standing around the world.  That is true of all the candidates in this race.

Isn't that the point?  Or must we force Gov. Shaheen to, paraphrasing William Wallace, "cross that field, present herself before this army, put her head between her legs, and kiss her own arse?" 

Jeanne Shaheen didn't lie America into war.  She didn't promote torture or alienate our allies -- nor did Clinton, Edwards, Biden, Richardson, Dodd, Daschle, or Gephardt.  They weren't yes-men for the most atrocious administration in history -- they fought to hold Bush, Cheney, and their cronies accountable for their crimes and incompetence. 

Bottom line:  We should be demanding apologies from Bush and Sununu.  We should NOT be doing their bidding by attacking our own candidates over nonexistent policy differences on Iraq.

---

by: Dartmouth Dem @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 18:09:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i'm NOT attackign Shaheen (0.00 / 0)

I'm just saying she would be stronger if she appologised for her early support of the war... or even just admitted she was mistaken... and move forward with strong opposition to Bush's Iraq Policy.

Thats all.

I'm not demanding she "kiss her own ass".

I think ti would make her stronger, because its clear that Sununu will try to use it against her.  HE ALREADY IS.  These you tubes prove it.

If she preempts him, she can neutralize the issue before it becomes an issue. 

Answer me this:  what risk is there in clearly saying she was mistaken in her early support?

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 18:27:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Asked and Answered (0.00 / 0)

First of all, my initial criticism was directed at Matt Stoller, who was quite clearly attacking Gov. Shaheen, per his usual pattern.  I know that you are above that.

Re: "apology", I think that Jeanne effectively addressed her view of Bush's 2002 arguments when she said:  "Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction. The links to al Qaeda that the president talked about were not there.  While I appreciate that there was an effort to make people in this county think that [there was a connection]?the fact is that?s not true."  Pretty clear to me where she stands. 

As far as Sununu is concerned, he says a lot of things that aren't true.  Distortions are his stock in trade -- remember, this is a guy who says of global warming that "the science is weak," and that he was "defending New Hampshire's interests" by voting against the minimum wage.  Do you remember 2002?  The "Shaheen's casinos" posters littering our highways?  Having Jeanne get down on her hands and knees and beg for forgiveness -- for a policy that she has since loudly condemned -- won't stop Sununu's lies.

Personally, I think New Hampshire voters are a lot smarter now than they were five years ago.  They've learned their lesson.  They won't buy Sununu's garbage this time.

---

by: Dartmouth Dem @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 18:56:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Not officially?" (0.00 / 0)

What's that mean?

Gov. Shaheen's husband was co-chair of CSP's campaign in 2006. Does that mean Gov. Shaheen was unofficially supporting CSP? No. As the Director of the IOP at Harvard, Gov. Shaheen cannot get involved in partisan politics. She's not supporting Clinton officially or unofficially.


I'm a Jeanne Shaheen friend and staffer.

---

by: Judy Reardon @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 08:04:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Like the DLC meeting (0.00 / 0)

Hillary doesn't attend, but her husband Bill gives a speach.

  a new way to triangulate....

"time to ask Americans to be patriotic about something other than war"- John Edwards

---

by: inevitibility @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 11:35:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And you (0.00 / 0)

OF COURSE Shaheen was unofficially supportive of CSP. 

What, are you telling me she was supporting Jeb Bradley?

---

by: Nicholas Gunn @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 17:10:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not what she said (0.00 / 0)

No, she is telling you that Jeanne Shaheen cannot support anyone while she has that job, it is a requirement that she not support any candidate.

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

---

by: Kathy Sullivan @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 at 17:20:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]