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The Poverty Problem Problem

by: Mike Caulfield

Sat Aug 11, 2007 at 13:50:58 PM EDT


So it's been several weeks since Edwards's "poverty tour", and perhaps it's time to ask why his signature issue seems unable to get traction.

I can't speak for the the areas where Edwards has toured, but I can take some guesses regarding the lack of traction in New Hampshire, where 10% of children live below the poverty line.

The problem here is that putting the myriad of problems associated with poverty under a "poverty platform" makes them less relevant to people's lives.

Just recently, for instance, I helped move a thirty-seven year old friend of mine back into her father's house. Because of a medical condition that limits her employment, she makes less than $12,000 a year, and the cost of living just got to be too much for her.

$12,000 a year. (Of course, she was able to get a credit card...)

And her apartment? Here's the wall of the bedroom in which she was sleeping:

Photo-0016.jpg

What you're seeing there is what happens to plaster over the space of a year when the landlord refuses to believe the mortar is leaking.

Medical condition, low pay, disturbing living conditions. But would she say she's in poverty? No. At least not without an ironic laugh.

She'll tell you straight up: she's not poor. She's broke.

I would suggest, that in New Hampshire at least, very few people living below the poverty line would see themselves as having a "poverty problem". They have a rent problem. They have a child care problem. They have a medical problem. Recently they have a rising food cost problem.

They have wall problem.

But were you to ask them to name their current problems, I doubt poverty would rate.

So why pull all these problems under a poverty umbrella? It's pretty simple really. The "poverty problem" is a middle class construction with Christian overtones -- by pulling these together in a poverty platform Edwards gains the right to talk about these in moral terms. It's difficult to talk about the skyrocketing price of milk as a moral issue, but tied to poverty, you can do that. Same with health care, education, childcare, and labor.

This, of course, has been the dream of the Democratic consulting class for a while -- that we on the left can counter the empty moralism of the right with a rousing indictment of our nation's true moral failure: the failure to provide those that fall through the cracks of our economy with enough to live decently.

But it's flawed. It's a pipe dream. Forces political and otherwise have removed the barriers between the middle class and the poor. Burn rates are high, savings are low, and Corporate America, which used to absorb risk in exchange for reaping rewards has taken the rewards and pushed the risk down on to their employees.

There is room for some moralism here, if that's the way you want to play it -- but it a world where every middle class family is one medical procedure away from sinking permanently into the underclass, that moralism looks less like RFK and more like Lou Dobbs. And if you find that distasteful, it's probably best to stay out of the moralism business altogether.

I think Edwards has some of the smartest policy proposals I've seen. If he can move away from the moral frame, and call the problems by the names people know them under, more people might see the strengths of those policies -- we might realize that my friend's problems with housing and medical care are not that far removed, at least qualitatively, from the problems that squeeze the middle class.

Drop the poverty frame, and there's a powerful message to the "bottom 99%" of us that we are more similar than we think, and we should throw our lot in together, not out of charity, but out of common interest -- an approach which, to my thinking, has always been more humane in tone than charity.

Here's hoping Edwards adjusts his messaging on this.

And if he wants to see the wall on his next tour, he's welcome to stop by. My friend is gone, but I know the current tenant.

She's a Richardson supporter.

Mike Caulfield :: The Poverty Problem Problem
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The poverty issue may not be getting much traction for Edwards as he runs for President... (0.00 / 0)
For the same reason the issue never had traction with Edwards, himself, while he was in the Senate.

His career in the Senate is very undistinguished.


What a great diary! (4.00 / 4)
I've been wondering for years why people who, for all intents and purposes are living in poverty seem to lack the political will to fight to change the policies that keep them there. One thing is that when  a person has to use all his/her energy to survive, there is little left for anything else--art, reading, exercise. But you pointed out that the people living with this don't see themselves that way. And who would? I know people on hefty trust funds who don't consider themselves rich, either. We're all "middle class", wouldn't ya know, whether we make $10,000 or $1,000,000 a year. It's pretty amazing how good a job the mass media have done to blur these distinctions that were in the consciousness of previous generations.

  To many, poverty is the realm of the so-called developing nations (aka Third World), not the US of A. But when Europeans saw the footage of Hurricane Katrina, they saw a so-called Third World nation, not their image of the States.
And its been out there for a while. A number of years ago, a Scandanavian hippie-type went around the States with his camera, and the result was "American Pictures", views of real, abject poverty.

The policies of the Republicans have exacerbated the problem. I sometimes wonder whether its not a purposeful attempt to turn this into a cartoon of a "developng nation", ie: a very wealthy class with access to everything including paid, private militia, and then a lower class of  wage slaves living a subsistance lifestyle. The government provides nothing except contracts and protection for the upper class. No schools, no roads, no health care, no Social Security, no TANF (a thing of Bill Clinton, and the concept stinks, IMHO), no SSI.

But how do we articulate a better way? It is imperative to reconstruct the narrative in a way that means somethign to people "Poverty" doesn't do it, and I think it's less a factor of the "moral "frame than of a "separate" one. In other words to talk about poverty is to be separate from it, whereas to talk about the challenges and how to overcome them helps people see the way out. In other words, we have to move from nouns to verbs.


I think the moral frame and the seperateness are related (4.00 / 1)
Meaning -- by seeing it as something separate from us we are able to appear more moral -- we're the saviors sweeping in, right?

When we accept it as a continuum it looks like self interest.

Great point about trust fund kiddies not seeing themselves as rich -- I've noted that too, how they often have this weird desire to talk about middle class problems, and you kind of want to just take them aside and say, you know, he difference between my job sucking and your job sucking is that if I quit mine, my family loses the house. So, it's slightly different...

But here's the interesting thing, is as annoying as that behavior is, it shows how much people feel a need to identify with the middle class in this country. That's why Cameron Diaz has to talk about how much she likes Target and the Swiffer.

I mean, come on. Yeah, Diaz does her own housecleaning. Yeesh.

It's that powerful identification that, at least in the circles I travel in, never lets anyone voluntarily define themselves as poor.




[ Parent ]
Which is why (4.00 / 1)
Carol Shea Porter's line about "I'm running to represent the other 99 percent" was so brilliant.

[ Parent ]
And the second thing you just reminded me of (0.00 / 0)
Is if you look at the nations that care for their poor -- I'd bet good money that on the whole the those reforms came out of a sense of shared situation and not charity.

I'm obviously just guessing here, but my sense of history is these movements came more out of labor saying we're all in this together than people saying we really have to help these poor people out.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong....



[ Parent ]
you are absolutely right (4.00 / 2)
People who are struggling every minute with subsistence issues don't have time or energy to bother with politics, and they KNOW that politicians don't really care about them, and aren't going to do anything about them.

NH has a real housing problem - yet nothing gets done about it - because if communities did build affordable housing, people with children might move in - and children are the enemy as long as we rely on the property tax.

The right has done a masterful job of dividing us with the bootstrap meme. People who "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" are admired - though I've never, ever, met one who didn't have some help along the way.

These days, we're all in it alone. The Republitarians want to privatize everything. The further away we move from the public square into privatization, the less likely we are to be interested in helping the less fortunate. This is destroying community - and community is essential to repairing everything that is wrong on our planet.

That we have over a million homeless children in this country should be a source of outrage. That we accept homelessness as a given is shameful.

NH Kucinich Campaign


[ Parent ]
I read your column this week (0.00 / 0)
about Conway planning board rejecting the low income housing development.

Not that people in Conway like to admit that there are low income people who need housing.

Even the liberals like NH Insider blogger Mark Hounsell (who is on the Conway Planning board, and voted against the housing development).


[ Parent ]
Agree that it's a really super diary. (0.00 / 0)
I hate charity and poverty used to be considered a virtue.  It means that you only take as much as you need to survive and be fruitful.  The problem we have is that our society is not keen on providing the basics to accomplish that.
The primary explanation, I think, lies in the belief that people are supposed to "earn" their right to exist by being subservient.  Because that's what the elite demand. 
You see, you can't have an elite unless there's someone to be better than--the more someones the better.
Some people are being deprived of the necessities of life on purpose.

This is not going to be addressed with an anti-poverty program because poverty is not the problem.  The problem is deprivation.  That's not the responsibility of the victim; that's the responsibility of the rest of us.

Such bluntness would not garner Edwards a lot of votes.


[ Parent ]
Being cheated is morally debilitating. (0.00 / 0)
It makes one feel worthless when one is over-charged because, in addition to demanding more than whatever one is buying is presumably worth, one is faced with the assumption that one is too stupid to know the difference. 
How does an individual who needs a place to live deal with landlords who charge more because of the color of their skin, their age, or their gender?

[ Parent ]
The odd thing (4.00 / 1)
This fact of political life, so well described here, is well known in the Beltway. It was analyzed to death when Reagan won. It was trotted out again over the estate tax repeal. What's The Matter With Kansas? addresses it.

No one -- at least, no one who votes -- thinks they are "poor." They may know they're in a bad patch right now, but their mind is on the better times they hope for.

The Great Depression was a great departure from this truism. With songs like Yip Harburg's Buddy, Can You Spare a Dime? the whole country felt poor. Now the whole country feels middle class.

It's hard to build a constituency around poverty.  That's a well-known problem. Even a top-tier Presidential campaign can't figure out how to make it work.


What about changing the words? (0.00 / 0)
(Crossposted at Open Left in a diary that linked to this one.)

Instead of "moral" issue, how about a "values" issue?  I went to a disabilities forum put on by the Edwards campaign in NH, he wasn't there but his staff were, including his campaign manager, and I came away after listening to many disabled people, and people who work with the disabled community, thinking about the values I care about, and how I, and others, really need to be honest about looking at our values, and then finding a candidate who would lead us to really work for those values.  That is what I find in John Edwards.
I am a white female Democratic grassroots activist, and all the people like me I know are liking John Edwards best. I think that is interesting. I have no problem trusting him, but I have a lot of problems trusting Hillary or Obama. 
The issue a lot of people here talk about is healthcare, and that may be the major draw of Edwards.  At least that is what I am hearing.
I also wonder how much of the Hillary stuff is name recognition, and how much is the "inevitability" (she's going to win so let's get on board now) that seems to have replaced "electability" as the mantra we had in 2004.

We believe in prosperity & opportunity, strong communities, healthy families, great schools, investing in our future and leading the world by example. We are Democrats; we are the change you're looking for.


One problem is (4.00 / 1)
that the appearance of poverty is vastly different today than, say, 40 years ago.

Gone in America, for the most part, are pictures of people ravaged by hunger surrounded by broken furniture.

Today, the combination of cheap junk from Wal Mart with high fructose corn syrup drenched cheap unhealthy food and drink creates a very different look to poverty.  Obesity, e.g., is now associated in some degree with poverty.

Another problem, is, as elwood mentions, no one wants to identify themselves as poor.  It took me some years and distance to learn and understand that I in fact did not grow up middle class, but lower middle class with occasional adventures into poverty.  And while pursuing my education as an adult I was certainly living at or below the poverty line, but didn't see it as such because it was in the service of obtaining a fancy degree that would allow me to teach dead languages, and I had no dependents.  Nonetheless, I was poor, with no health insurance and no savings and on many occasions great trouble over how to pay the rent.

birch, finch, beech


It turns out that we were somewhat poor for a while when I was a kid (4.00 / 1)
I never knew it until a couple years ago. I was talking to my mom, and I said, hey well, you always loved pancakes!

And she says what?

And I say, remember, when we were kids, we'd always have pancakes for dinner, because you loved them so much.

And she said, well, we did that because we were broke. Towards the end of your dad's pay period it was pancakes.

Yeah, so it turns out after my dad got out of a six year stint in the military there weren't many jobs out there. For several years, we ate pancakes quite often. I don't know what that comes out to, lower middle class, upper lower class, whatever. But interesting...

Of course now a credit card company would come to the rescue of my parents and make sure that when my dad finally found a job there'd be a good amount of debt to pay off. Yee-ha.





[ Parent ]
Yes! That's the difference. (0.00 / 0)
That last line.

Debt, in the form of credit, comes to (falsely) rescue us from the recognition of true poverty.

What happens then when the foreclosured and the ones suffering under the bankruptcy bill become a larger and larger voting bloc?

Interesting times ahead.

birch, finch, beech


[ Parent ]
What! Me Worry? (0.00 / 0)
Poverty doesn?t impact you until it impacts your children. What most people who say they are ?broke? or ?down on their luck? mean is today their children still have a chance. This is after all still America. But is it? Really. So what options do our children have?

Best bet is the US Military!

Think about that. Think about what tax payers are paying children for carrying a gun.

We pay for health care benefits, even disability benefits. We pay for their college education, and housing. We pay for travel and extended vacations. We provide a very good retirement policy, providing you live to retirement.

People who put together high powered panels of experts to study how to rebuild the military are the poverty pimps of the 21st century. Avoid them like the plague. Avoid them at all costs.

The next time you hear a politician cry out in revulsion, ?what are we doing to our chuld-run?? you can know s/he isn?t talking about the ones we entice through necessity to join the many, the proud and the brave.

Me poor? Depends on who you compare me to.

The top 1%? Absolutely!

The other 99% just one paycheck away?? Not so much.


Great work Mike (0.00 / 0)
This is a very important point, and the kind of issue that we will have to master if we want to be the party that "actually gets things done."

I'm right there with jbd.  I also find it fascinating how in some circles being well off is considered a mark of elegance, while in others it is seen as almost a character flaw.

But still, the plain fact is that very few people think of themselves as "poverty-stricken."  That's the sort of phrase that's more or less exclusive to the media.  I really do love John Edwards and at least he's speaking out on these issues when no one else is, but I'm not sure that I'd want a "Poverty Tour" to come to my town, no matter how bad off we were.

I think there's a much better way to frame the issue of "poverty," which is both more convincing and will lead to better economic results.  I don't really have time to get my thoughts together tonight, maybe I'll put it in a diary later.  The "other 99%" bit is certainly a good start and I'm glad to see Edwards and others using it.

Where do we go from here?


I've also been reading some Ivan Illich recently (0.00 / 0)
And if you wanted to take it at 30,000 feet, my new favorite anarchist has some interesting views:

Modernized poverty appears when the intensity of market dependence reaches a certain threshold. Subjectively, it is the experience of frustrating affluence which occurs in persons mutilated by their overwhelming reliance on the riches of industrial productivity. Simply, it deprives those affected by it of their freedom and power to act autonomously, to live creatively; it confines them to survival through being plugged into market relations. And precisely because this new impotence is so deeply experienced, it is with difficulty expressed. We are the witnesses of a barely perceptible transformation in ordinary language by which verbs that formerly designated satisfying actions are replaced by nouns that denote packages designed for passive consumption only: for example, "to learn" becomes "acquisition of credits." A profound change in individual and social self-images is here reflected. And the layman is not the only one who has difficulty in accurately describing what he experiences. The professional economist is unable to recognize the poverty his conventional instruments fail to uncover. Nevertheless, the new mutant of impoverishment continues to spread. The peculiarly modern inability to use personal endowments, communal life, and environmental resources in an autonomous way infects every aspect of life where a professionally engineered commodity has succeeded in replacing a culturally shaped use-value. The opportunity to experience personal and social satisfaction outside the market is thus destroyed. I am poor, for instance, when the use-value of my feet is lost because I live in Los Angeles on the thirty-fifth floor.

One might consider about how we might rethink poverty. To the extent that we don't control our destinies because we can't use "personal endowments, communal life, and environmental resources in an autonomous way" is a far better metric than whether you have air conditioning. I'm sure if you were to ask my friend which she hated more -- that wall or her doctor treating her like a child, the answer would be the doctor situation.

Meaning, I guess, that dignity and self-determination above all means something, and the first step in that is to stop it with the "poverty" label.





On that last point (0.00 / 0)
Sorry to jump in late here, but there's a lot here, and I'm pressed for time. I may comment further later.

Globally speaking, we are all rich. And nationally speaking, we are relatively rich. I try to bear that in mind whenever I feel pinched for cash.



[ Parent ]
Poverty (4.00 / 1)
I think the Edwards message works well if you're a committed Democrat and you sometimes wonder why we do what we do. Oh yes, because there are poor people. Who do we have so many immigrants? They're coming here for jobs, because they're poor. Why are the schools chaotic? Oh, because there are poor students whose parents are working and not able to reinforce the value of education.

And the list goes on. Why must we protect Social Security, when we know it will never be enough? Because for some people, it's all they have when they're old, etc., etc.

I agree with Mike that Edwards could pitch a similar message to a broader middle class audience, but it may be too late to do it now, because he'll be seen as abandoning the poverty issue, or it could even backfire if he offends those voters who don't consider themselves poor.  (Re: poverty being a virtue, I disagree -- poverty one escaped from is a virtue, and in reflecting on that virtue people often add things like "You're spoiled. We had X and it was plenty for us." "Oh yeah well shut up then.").

In short, I think the most admirable thing about the Edwards camaign has been the focus on poverty. It's an umbrella that works for me. I suppose I'd get tired of it, though, if it became too common. I roll my eyes at every "education" candidate.


I learned a lot (4.00 / 1)
...in reading this diary and it has helped to better explain many feelings I've had that I couldn't quite put into words.

The contributions made in the comments were similarly well-thought out and educational, which makes this a shining example of the kind of thorough and intelligent conversation that the netroots has created.

That said, I'm extremely upset to see that it has been smeared by a pro-Edwards blogger on the Daily Kos.

Mike has been disingenuously associated with another well-reasoned criticism of Edwards' "poverty" messaging, authored by Matt Stoller.  Stoller was also participating in another developing conversation over the issue of racism and how statements made by Elizabeth Edwards, along with John's poverty frame, might play into this.

He attempts to justify his charge by citing an interesting but ultimately superficial post by Mike Caulfield at Blue New Hampsire. Caulfield believes that JRE shouldn't speak in moral terms about poverty. More precisely, Caulfield believes that JRE shouldn't indentify the poor as a discete population or poverty as a problem.

Poverty is a middle class construct? Really? Caulfield wants us to believe that there are no differences between the problems of the poor and those of the middle class, a claim he takes to absurd lengths:

  [E]very middle class family is one medical procedure away from sinking permanently into the underclass

This is...how I should put it? Bullshit. Caulfield and Stoller think poor people are just like you and I. But they're not: they have less money. Stoller says Edwards is "condescending," but what could be more condescending that the middle class believing that they're as bad off as the destitute?

Caulfield claims that Edwards is "moralizing." Is it moralizing to oppose war or government corruption on moral grounds? By Caulfield's perverse definition, to talk about the immorality of anything would be to moralize. Caulfield compounds his dishonesty by claiming that Edwards talks about poverty precisely so that he can speak in moral terms (or "moralize.")

I'm simply reporting the attacks this blogger has made against Mike (and by extension, all who have engaged in this conversation or agreed with it).
You can read Matt Stoller's response to this attack: In Defense of Criticism

My only contribution would be this...  As I followed the conversation that developed in this post, the participation of Edwards' supporters became noticeably absent

It's quite clear to anyone who follows the reccomended diaries on this site that there are a few Edwards bloggers (no different than the other campaigns) who post diaries and comment on others, and certainly do not miss anything unfavorable that has been said of John Edwards.  I wondered at what point someone would jump into this conversation in Edwards's defense, but now it appears that instead of joining in on a substantive discussion like this one, the response has come instead in the form of a vicious attack on the character of Matt Stoller, Mike Caufield, and many at Blue Hampshire by implication.


It's time we steer by the stars, and not the lights of every passing ship


Nothing more dangerous -- (4.00 / 1)
-- than a writer with a book to sell.

I don't want to speak for Edwards supporters, but I think they didn't reply to Mike's post because Mike's post did not attack Edwards.

Re: Mizner's attack, it is a smear, but it's too clumsy to be effective.

Mike, what did you do to that guy? Did you get the last doughnut at YearlyKos?



[ Parent ]
Mizner or Stoller? (0.00 / 0)
I didn't realize there was a book involved..

Upon reading the discussion that's been raging on over Stoller's latest post, it appears he took a pretty big leap of faith in asserting Edwards either is a racist or has said things that are a little racist.  Not to say that it can't be true, but to state it so casually in front of a predominantly white audience, and which favors Edwards the most of the three front-runners, was a mistake.

This diary, on the other hand, should not have been lumped in with Stollers, as I said before, and it was a disingenuous, ad hominem attack (guilt by association) to discredit the objective conversation that was had here.

It's time we steer by the stars, and not the lights of every passing ship


[ Parent ]
Mizner (0.00 / 0)
He plugs it, just below the diary:

And now for bit of shameless self-promotion...

My new novel comes out in a week. Please consider buying it. It's really quite good, but then I would think that, wouldn't I?

by david mizner

I declined to include his link, but he challenged two other bloggers, put in the hot-button issue of racism, then plugged his book. Hmmm.



[ Parent ]
Very well said, and (0.00 / 0)
thank you for saying it.

If I hadn't had a day of running around with real-life errands, I would have had more time to jump into the absurd thread that followed that disingenuous post.

birch, finch, beech


[ Parent ]
I didn't rush to Edwards defense (0.00 / 0)
because Mike was trying to work out his own issues.
It is working too hard to split hairs over the whys of things no one can control. I don't see much to comment on, except a painful pissing match over who's righter.

Next time, there may be no next time.

I really don't think it's about who's righter (4.00 / 2)
Mizner uses phrases like "Caulfield compounds his dishonesty"

Well, whatever.

You've been around here long enough to know that I don't care much about being right. I'd rather be wrong and learn something.



[ Parent ]
"Let it be a learning experience" (0.00 / 0)
anybody remember Bel kaufman's great book, "Up the Down Staircase " ???

Next time, there may be no next time.

[ Parent ]
speaking of poverty (0.00 / 0)
http://www.fosters.c...

Dennis Kucinich spoke to a group of women at Families in Transition yesterday. FIT is a shelter for women who are transitioning out of homelessness and into housing and the workforce.

Congressman Kucinich understands this on a gut level, since he experienced homelessness as a child.

NH Kucinich Campaign



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