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Cliff Notes for David Mizner

by: Mike Caulfield

Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 23:08:45 PM EDT


So, as you may know, David Mizner decided to misrepresent my diary on Edwards's "Poverty Platform"  for lord knows what reason. His post was followed by approximately 400 comments which nicely excorciate me for a post that (judging from our sitemeter stats) none of them actually bothered to read.

But who knows: perhaps people will actually decide to read my diary, or perhaps Mizner will return and attempt to understand it. Since he and the bulk of his followers appear to be interpretation challenged, I offer the following gloss.

Here's how my original diary starts:

So it's been several weeks since Edwards's "poverty tour", and perhaps it's time to ask why his signature issue seems unable to get traction.

For all intents and purposes this is a topic sentence. It's a little artsy, I know. It doesn't lay it out 7th grade style. But it does announce the topic: Edwards's "poverty platform" rhetoric seems to not be getting traction, at least if his numbers are any guide. The diary will discuss why that might be so.

You all following me so far? The purpose of the diary is to discuss why the rhetoric of "poverty" is not serving Edwards better.

I continue:

I can't speak for the the areas where Edwards has toured, but I can take some guesses regarding the lack of traction in New Hampshire, where 10% of children live below the poverty line.

Further refinement: I'm limiting myself to the more local situation. And I'm asserting that locally one would think the poverty rhetoric would be more resonant, given the poverty numbers in this state.

Now watch this:

The problem here is that putting the myriad of problems associated with poverty under a "poverty platform" makes them less relevant to people's lives.

Anyone know what that is? Anyone?

Bueller?

It's called a thesis statement. It's classic, and so obvious I almost eliminated it from the diary at first.

But here's a trick David: next time you want to "critique" my diary, quote my damn thesis statement.

The rest of the diary is pretty simple. I tell a personal anecdote of someone who is very poor due largely to a medical condition. And I mention she doesn't think of herself as poor, or as having a poverty problem. She's interested in better health care, a better social safety net, increased wages.

Then I mention the wide middle class and how their realtionship to poverty more recently is that they are frightened they will fall into it. They've seen what a layoff or medical condition can do. Given that, the middle class is interested in hearing about better health care, a better social safety net, increased wages.

Still with me, David? Did you notice that's the same set of things? I'm sorry I wasn't clear before.

So now we approach an answer to the initial question, and an elucidation of the thesis: the issue does not have traction with the poor, because they don't think they are poor. And that to my mind is not a problem. They want to be spoken to like the middle class -- a population that politicians speak to with respect.

And the middle class would love to be spoken to like -- well, the middle class. They're nervous that their stability is in jeopardy.

And then I explicitly mention I think much of Edwards's policy is good, but I think using the "Poverty Platform" as an umbrella over it (and re-enacting RFK's tour) is a distraction from how America as a whole could benefit from many of these policies on, wait for it, better health care, a better social safety net, increased wages.

As you can see, it was a total hit piece on Edwards.

Anyway, I hope this helped. I'd respond to your criticisms in your post, but I'm pretty sure after reading this gloss, you'll be embarrassed and issue a full retraction, so I'll just wait for that instead.

Oh, and although this diary was pretty simple, I actually have a bunch of more jumbled thoughts I'm hashing out about the relationship of modern poverty to the dissapearance of the Commons and the rise of consumer culture. Heavy stuff; I'm guessing beyond your ken. Might want to steer clear of here for a while, no?

Mike Caulfield :: Cliff Notes for David Mizner
One additional thing: I have to say looking at the comments on Mizner's diary at DKos and comparing them to the back and forth comments we have here, I'm thankful that we have the site we have and the readership we have. I know we get in spats, but the fact we even try to have reasoned discourse in the comments is a bit of an anomaly.

So thank you all.

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quote my damn thesis statement (4.00 / 4)
"which are if you are going to go after a candidate, link heavily, take a moderate tone, etc. Or bring new facts to the table, etc, ala Dillon."

Not too moderate here Mike...you make it about the site, but you are stinging from the criticism on another site.
Its almost like you don't want to think that you could bring BlueHampshire down with a post that was heartfelt, but it comes with the territory. You've got to have thick skin here. I wrote an early piece about Karen Hicks car being booted, tongue in cheek for the most part, and I was
given a thorough going over, and was called a troll at one point, and a rumor monger who was not up to blogging here. Its always about who's ox is being gored.
Would you be happier if Edwards chosen topic of poverty was getting traction ? Is it worthy of a candidacy ? Since no one has had the testicular fortitude to try and talk about it seriously since 1968, should we throw the baby out with the bath water ? Then wait another 40 years ?


Next time, there may be no next time.


You're entirely missing the point here. (0.00 / 0)
The density of Edwards supporters on this is almost amusing.

This doesn't "go after a candidate," and it doesn't say campaigns should not address poverty. It explores how to do that.

And it's clear in the text that Yes, Mike would be happy if Edwards were getting traction with the issue: the diary is about how to make that happen.


[ Parent ]
You're entirely missing the point here. (4.00 / 1)
Interesting.

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[ Parent ]
There are thousands of Edwards supporters (4.00 / 3)
on Daily Kos.  I wouldn't characterized them so poorly.  I don't think that I am dense.  In fact I think Edwards supporters have a tendency to write a lot of diaries and enter into very good discussions whether on Daily kos, MyDD or here.  I like peeking in here to keep tabs on what is happening in New Hampshire.  Many good articles.  I think this elaboration of Caulfield's point of view is very good except for the sarcastic tone.  And even that is kind of fun (I think it is tongue in cheek but maybe I am wrong).  I think David Mizner would probably take it in stride. 

The objection that started the diary deluge (four diaries and maybe more) was the idea put forward carelessly by Stoller that Edwards was "a little racist" and how that had been determined by taking things out of context and weaving them into a less than rigorous post using some of Caulfield's writing to prove the point.  I just think it was not one of Stoller's best pieces.  The response was vigorous because the charge was scurrilous and needed to be cleared up.  How people do that depends on their particular perspectives and talents.

What I do like here is that you got back to the issues.  I agree that many people in poverty do not identify themselves as such.  Edwards is talking both about poverty and strengthening the middle class.  There are many who used to do well and now because of structural changes e.g. deregulation, lack of or inadequate medical insurance, and revenues being sucked away by the Iraq war have fallen into poverty whether they identify it well or not.  Discussion is needed because poverty for some seems shameful.  Changing the level of dialogue on this issue won't happen overnight.  However Caulfield does explore some ways that the issue might be framed differently. I am interested in what would have more traction for Edwards ideas in New Hamphshire?  I am fascinated how different regions of the country see similar issues with different filters.  Back to lurking.


[ Parent ]
All Mike was doing was suggesting (0.00 / 0)
that there is a better way to talk about the poverty issue, a "frame" if you want to use that language.

This better way of talking is to talk about the "opportunity gap."  Mike's point that many people who are at the lowest income levels don't think of themselves as poor is a very solid one.  And the "opportunity problem" is really what John Edwards is talking about, when he does his top 1% vs the rest bit.

My interpretation of what both Mike and Matt Stoller were doing was trying to start a discussion on the language and perspective that we use to look at this one problem.  That it was John Edwards they were discussing only shows that he is at the forefront of this issue.

Don't let them get you down, Mike, and kudos to Elwood and others for standing up for you.

We're all in this together, but we need to recognize that it's okay to give candidates constructive criticism.  I'm hopeful that we can realize that we're trying to work together to improve our candidates and the party here.  The concern trolls have really muddied the waters for those trying to give constructive criticism.

On the other hand, Mike, just remember --all publicity is good publicity . . .

Where do we go from here?


Opportunity is a dirty word in my book. (0.00 / 0)
Think of giving a non-swimmer an "opportunity" to swim by throwing the kid in a pond.

"Opportunity" is a Bush Two word.  Hundreds of thousands have been given the "opportunity" to purchase a home they don't earn enough to pay for.

Poverty is a virtue.  It means you take only what you need to sustain yourself and your progeny.  Poverty is not a problem.

The problem is deprivation.  Millions of people have been created, brought into this world and then deprived of what's required to grow and develop and become creative themselves.
Why?  Because there's a large segment of the population which prefers to believe that other people have to deserve being sustained by demonstrating their subservience.  Entitled to life, they are not entitled to live, unless they conform to the social norms.  And just so the message doesn't get lost, some percentage of the population needs to be kept on the edge of starvation and some percentage needs to be deprived of freedom so the rest won't forget what's at stake.
As Jesus said, "what you do to the least of these........."


[ Parent ]
It seems to me that (0.00 / 0)
deprivation is the lack of opportunity.  You say people are "deprived of what's required to grow and develop and become more creative themselves," the way I see it, giving people "what's required" gives them opportunity.

Unfortunately it seems that the word has been co-opted for you, but I suspect that we're actually very much on the same page here.  Especially when you talk about being "deprived of freedom," that's exactly the message that I think we need to be sending.  Losing freedom and opportunity are exactly the problems.  Once again the word "freedom" has been co-opted to mean "the freedom of certain priveleged people to do whatever they want."  We need to figure out how to reclaim some of these words.

-Gavin

Where do we go from here?


[ Parent ]
If you read Stoller's article (4.00 / 1)
especially how he ends with the "little bit racist" line, it seems quite a stretch that he actually wanted to have a real conversation on this. And that seems to be what David was trying to point out more than anything.

It seems like Mike's post would be better directed at Stoller more than David.


[ Parent ]
I don't really care what Edwards camp thinks (0.00 / 0)
this is a legitimate issue to be discussing, it is being discussed in a thoughtful manner, and the only real excuse that Edwards' supporters have for being upset is that it was sparked by the fact that he, counterintuitively, isn't doing so well in the polls.

Matt Stoller's criticism of Edwards was pretty charged and not the type of thing where you can turn the other cheek.  However, your diary evidences no bias, there's no indication you have an axe to grind with Edwards (although that really doesn't matter) and the quality of the post is above average.

It's time we steer by the stars, and not the lights of every passing ship


Rhetorical analysis and being partisan (4.00 / 2)
Thanks Andy.

I'd also like to point out that if you type "hope action edwards" into Google you'll see a diary of mine that I wrote in December last year saying that Edwards had nicely positioned himself as the cadidate of action vs. Obama's candidacy of hope.

It was, to my knowledge, one of the first pieces to note that the theme of moving to "action" was being contrasted to hope.

In that article, at a time when Edwards was very low in the polls, I predicted he would rise, and become the third candidate.

He did.

Now he's falling -- and I'm interested why.

The idea I'm trying to bring down Edwards is just idiotic.




[ Parent ]
Not Falling (0.00 / 0)
Mike on his last trip we had 350 people in a backyard in Canterbury when 220 had rsvp'd ...on a sunny Sunday morning at the end of July, no less. It was the best NH event I've attended for JRE in 5 years. He spoke for 20 minutes and answered question for close to an hour. More 'leaners' converted to active volunteers in our offices in the week after than at any time time in any Edwards campaign, that's Primary~ General~ and Primary.
He's ahead of all Democrats vs Giuliani in swing states like Ohio(Where's Jerid?). He maintains a lead in Iowa. I predict a bounce in NH. Make no mistake, John Edwards is doing more with less...he definitely benefited from the spat of the Titans, and people decided to take another look. Mike if I am right, Americans have a vestigial subconscious streak of morality. The guilt of abandoning our collective responsibility must be talked about by a leader to convert longing for a brighter day (Ben harper fans unite)into conscious action towards that end.

Their upbringing of the older among us was in a time when service was expected, Religion accepted, and people voted volunteered and joined membership organizations at a much higher rate. We were a more caring community after WWII, rebuilding even the conquered nations. It did not hurt us to be generous and act in enlightened self interest with our former deadly adversaries.

Those who went through WWII remember President Roosevelt,who first had brought them through the Depression. Those of us from the 60's remember RFK...though really rich, they both actually cared about the least fortunate among us. Bobby went into the Ghettos on the night of Martin's assassination, against all advice, to keep the peace and to keep faith with the movement for social justice and civil rights. It was interesting to see him evolve from an Attorney General who was not in favor of King's March on Montgomery to the champion he became. FDR created the great social programs at home for employment of the needy, feeding of the hungry, and care for the elderly through Social Security. He was a great leader in war and peace. The model of a Democrat. He did, and we still do care about the working poor among us. They work two jobs, can't afford helath care and blog here.

Edwards will make his stand without focus groups. He stands with the issues of working America. The question is whether  rank and file Democrats turn out and vote for their interests. Hillary and Obama both signed the Oman Free Trade Bill after Anti-slavery and Workers Rights language had been stripped out. I can't support their brand of strategic thinking. Its too nuanced by half. Right now, given the known knowns, and known unknowns, I am sticking with my gut.
I am sticking with John Edwards.

Next time, there may be no next time.


[ Parent ]
Lets (4.00 / 5)
also be clear to distinguish that one diarists opinion does not count as the "edwards camp" view.

Mike, and everyone here, have been extremely professional and we've been honored to share these conversations with you.

The campaign certainly didn't take it as a hit piece at all, was just a means to start a legitimate conversation about policy and tactics which is the whole purpose of the blogs!

Disclaimer - Don't know if I technically still need one since no longer work in NH, but am paid staffer at AFL-CIO :)


[ Parent ]
Thanks Eddie (4.00 / 1)
Appreciated, and understood.

As you know, I was very early to recognize that Edwards 2008 was a standard bearer for progressive reform, and while I now perhaps lean more towards Dodd as my candidate, I would like to see Edwards doing better, not worse -- because at base that means he is connecting with people on those issues we need to connect on, and that is good for everyone.

When campaigns educate people on issues, it's not always a zero sum game.

In any case thanks -- I know my response was a bit harsh, but I did feel it was willful misinterpretation -- I promise not to paint Edwards supporters with the same brush...



[ Parent ]
Fracturing of the Lefty Blogs (0.00 / 0)
I've been noticing a lot more negative, aggressive and sarcastic back and forth within the lefty blogs lately.  These two are just more examples of it, even if I am on Mike's side here.  And I am an Edwards guy.

But it just seems like we are in danger of degenerating into the late 1980s discussion thread wars if we don't get our internal aggression in check. 

This isn't the biggest, or the worst, or even really out of line.  I'm just remarking on a trend I'm seeing.  Flame wars are easy to start, easier to escalate and often impossible to kill.


Off-topic? (0.00 / 0)
I really see this conversation as the opposite of what you've described.  Not degenerative - I'd argue it is bringing us in a new direction.

As for Mike's response to this base attack, he elevated the discourse.

Perhaps you don't mean to say Mike's post was any of these things, and this was meant just as a general comment about what you've been noticing.

It's time we steer by the stars, and not the lights of every passing ship


[ Parent ]
We've all tried to avoid that here (4.00 / 1)
The tactic of not engaging here on the diary itself, but rather posting commentary about it on different blogs, doesn't make for a very coherent conversation.

[ Parent ]
check (0.00 / 0)
check boss

Next time, there may be no next time.

[ Parent ]
My response was an attack (0.00 / 0)
But I did keep it substantive.

I just thought it was a shame that the introduction many people had to Blue Hampshire was based on lies.

If this was a bigger blog with a more established reputation, it'd roll off more.



[ Parent ]
Not much to add here (4.00 / 1)
... other than to vouch for the character of Mike Caulfield. I think I've known him the longest, off and on? He is not an attack guy.

He is occasionally errant in his musical taste, but aren't we all? Except me? :)


I read the Mizner piece on Daily Kos. (4.00 / 2)
I thought it primarily was a critique of Matt Stoller's misuse of your original post.  Your original post was not very impressive, in my view, but so what.  You did not assert that John Edwards and Elizabeth Edwards were a "little racist" in their statements about poverty.  That was Stoller.

I think your sarcasm and personal attacks in this post detracts from what you are trying to say. For example: "Still with me, David?"  I understand your feelings are hurt because you were criticized, but I think it comes with the territory. Instead of attacking, I think you would have been better served by addressing the merits of any critiques. 

I also think your original premise was incorrect: "Why Poverty does not get traction as an issue."  The Edwards camapign seems to have interelated positions.  Poverty is part of the Two Americas.  There are the super rich and everyone else.  Most are undepaid workers -- some severely underpaid.  It is not supposed to "get traction" as you see it.  When was the last time a candiate talked about poverty?  Not often by Democrats the last 30 years.  Poverty is part of a seamless whole.

In any event, poor folks are Americans also -- even if they cannot afford computers to read intellectual bloggers.

Unions are the best anti-poverty program in American history.  John Edwards appears to understand that. 

 


Merits? (0.00 / 0)
What merit did his critique have exactly?

All he does is use derogatory language and twist what Mike has said and misrepresent the diary.  I can't blame him for taking offense.

He attempts to justify his charge by citing an interesting but ultimately superficial post by Mike Caulfield at Blue New Hampsire. Caulfield believes that JRE shouldn't speak in moral terms about poverty. More precisely, Caulfield believes that JRE shouldn't indentify the poor as a discete population or poverty as a problem.

Poverty is a middle class construct? Really? Caulfield wants us to believe that there are no differences between the problems of the poor and those of the middle class, a claim he takes to absurd lengths:

[E]very middle class family is one medical procedure away from sinking permanently into the underclass

  This is...how I should put it? Bullshit. Caulfield and Stoller think poor people are just like you and I. But they're not: they have less money. Stoller says Edwards is "condescending," but what could be more condescending that the middle class believing that they're as bad off as the destitute?

Caulfield claims that Edwards is "moralizing." Is it moralizing to oppose war or government corruption on moral grounds? By Caulfield's perverse definition, to talk about the immorality of anything would be to moralize. Caulfield compounds his dishonesty by claiming that Edwards talks about poverty precisely so that he can speak in moral terms (or "moralize.")

My biggest problem is that all these people on Daily Kos, who do not read this blog, now think that Mike's diary was a hit-piece.  It was nothing of the sort, and rather an example of one of the more deep, substantive discussions that we have had here regarding policy issues.

It's unfortunate..

It's time we steer by the stars, and not the lights of every passing ship


[ Parent ]
Look, he misunderstands a post that your average 10th grader could get (0.00 / 0)
Which makes him either stupid or deceitful.

I chose stupid, which is giving him credit.




[ Parent ]
Look, he misunderstands a post that your average 10th grader could get (0.00 / 0)
Which makes him either stupid or deceitful.

I chose stupid, which is giving him credit.




[ Parent ]
Couple of points here (4.00 / 4)
  • In the first diary you wondered whether poverty had ever been alleviated by government initiatives aimed specifically at the poor, rather than a program that targeted both the poor and the middle class. The answer is "Yes." Lyndon Johnson declared a "War on Poverty" as part of the Great Society. About the only remaining component of the War on Poverty today is Head Start (Job Corps may be limping along in some places, too).
  • RFK's early 1968 Appalachian trip was more a personal journey of discovery, than a move to educate the public. Poverty was already in the public eye, between the War on Poverty and a focus on migrant farm workers (this was the Cesar Chavez era).
  • The LBJ approach was in part an effort to broaden support for a program that was perhaps most needed by poor blacks. This was also the era of the Kerner Commission, which warned (presaging Edwards) of "two Americas, one black, one white."
  • LBJ's approach with the War on Poverty is in contrast to his approach with Medicare, which was targeted at all Americans. As with FDR's Social Security, that has given the program such broad support that it has withstood generations of GOP attempts to destroy it. The narrower anti-poverty programs were dismantled when Republicans took over.


Providing some historcial (4.00 / 1)
perspective for this discussion is important.  Nixon started gutting the War on Poverty programs as soon as he got in office.  That this question was asked ("you wondered whether poverty had ever been alleviated by government initiatives aimed specifically at the poor") suggests to me a misunderstanding of history by the author. 

The War on Poverty did not fail.  It decreased poverty in America, but then was gutted by Republicans who used racism to attack poor folks.


[ Parent ]
But wit that said... (4.00 / 1)
...although Johnson announced the War on Poverty and the Great Society before the 1964 election, I wouldn't use 1964 as a guide to other campaigns. The Kennedy assassination was still traumatizing the nation, and Goldwater appeared reckless and extreme. The election (IMHO) turned on refusing to allow an assassin to short-circuit the Kennedy legacy, and on a "moderate" foreign and domestic policy.

[ Parent ]
Don't forget Michael Harrington (4.00 / 2)
A big influence on Kennedy and Johnson.

http://www.amazon.co...


[ Parent ]
We have moved to class from race . (0.00 / 0)
One Rich
One Poor

Next time, there may be no next time.

[ Parent ]
According to who? n/t (0.00 / 0)


It's time we steer by the stars, and not the lights of every passing ship

[ Parent ]
me (0.00 / 0)
At 96% Caucasian, the poor are white, I assume 96% of the poor anyway. In CT where there was a school funding case a while back, it centered on city vs suburbs, the study group called the problem Educational Aparthied. In New Hampshire there are two Americas...one for the Bow, Hanover, Hopkinton types, one for everybody else. The everybody else are white here. So the Apartheid comment would never be used. We are classists perhaps but not rascists. Just a pet theory that if the population were more like America so would be our understanding of poverty.

Next time, there may be no next time.

[ Parent ]
I take your point about the war on poverty (0.00 / 0)
But having lived in Chicago I associate that whole period with the failure of things like the Robert Taylor homes -- it wasn't ALL just republican dismantling, right? Much of that war was a failure...

Or am I drinking Republican Flavorade here? The question is partially whether the more general initiatives had a more pronouced effect -- and inn deciding that I suppose you run into the issue of whether the poverty programs failed because of inherent flaws or becuase they were politically dismantled --

And I suppose (stream of conciousness alert) there's another question -- does it matter? If general initiatives had a greater effect because the weathered the political storms better, isn't that perhaps reason enough to follow that route...



[ Parent ]
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