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Open Thread: Cross-Pollination Edition

by: Jack Mitchell

Fri Jun 12, 2009 at 15:40:12 PM EDT
(Was going to throw up a Weekend Open Thread, but this'll do. - promoted by Dean Barker)

The pros and cons of political blogging per Pindell
7 Reasons why gay marraige became NH law
7. Blue Hampshire. With the pressure and activism at a critical moment (when Sen. Reynolds voted no) gay marriage may not be the law of the land without this organizing tool. The site allowed for a conversation, activism and organization in a central place when the Democratic Party was not (or could not) devoting these resources.

Staffer: 'Fernald has evovled' on gay marriage

In a conversation on www.BlueHampshire.com commentors pointed out past statements in the Nashua Telegraph from 2004.
Jack Mitchell :: Open Thread: Cross-Pollination Edition
NHDP Chair Buckley and Rep. Splaine in blog war
New Hampshire Democratic Party Chairman Ray Buckley had an intense war of words with prominent State Rep. Jim Splaine (D-Portsmouth) in dispute that began about process on a health care resolution Splaine sponsored in the legislature this year and moved to be personal quickly.

The back and forth took place Tuesday. It began when Splaine said the State Senate rejected his non-binding resolution calling for a national single-payer health care system. Buckley, who addition to being chair also directs the State Senate Democratic Caucus took this has a slam of the Democratically controlled Senate.

Please use this Open Thread, wisely. People are watching.
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Open Thread: Cross-Pollination Edition | 49 comments
Belle of Amherst (4.00 / 1)
All my wars are laid away in blogs.
-- Emily Dickinson, if she had lived in 2009

Really? Ray "took" something as a "slam"? n/t (4.00 / 2)

But, just for the record--gay marriage did not "become law." (4.00 / 1)
Gay marriage was legitimatized or made legitimate--i.e. something public officials keep track of.  You know, like births and deaths and wills.  It's not a big thing except for the fact that this "service" was being denied on the basis of the petitioner's gender.
No, it became a law n/t (4.00 / 4)


"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    
[ Parent ]
Both true - (4.00 / 2)
Gay marriage has existed, unsanctioned by government, for generations. Hannah's description of the change as, now public officials keep track of it, seems correct.

But yes, that change is fairly called "becoming law."

[ Parent ]
speaking of gambling... (4.00 / 3)
Anyone up for an over/under on how many games in a row the Red Sox will beat the Yankees?

Anyone seen Emperor Bresler this week?

"But, in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." Si se puede. Yes we can.  

26 n/t (0.00 / 0)


www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
No, Jon (4.00 / 2)
That's the velocity on Chieng-Ming Wang's fastball. :)
[ Parent ]
this month (0.00 / 0)
jackanapes

www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
Dude, easy on JBB (4.00 / 3)
I've been talking him down for the last few days. It's gotta be tough, y'know. :v)

www.KusterforCongress.com  
[ Parent ]
I know you get your jollies this way (4.00 / 1)
and I am big enough to take it. We are one game down and in the end it won't matter unless there is a tie, and without provocation, I don't usually comment until after the All-Star break. By theway we were still playing last year, after your team was done. We looked horrible then got hot. The Sox better do better on the orad or things will be tough for them come playoff time, no matter who the opponent is.
Trivia Question: 5 point bonus: How many more titles would the Sox have won if the season ended in July?

www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
you mistake concern for schadenfreude. glad to know you are well. (4.00 / 1)


"But, in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." Si se puede. Yes we can.  
[ Parent ]
avoidance (0.00 / 0)
is not the same as coldbloodedness

www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
Two Games Down, JB (4.00 / 1)
We are one game down and in the end it won't matter unless there is a tie, and without provocation,

Live it, love it, accept it, Emperor.

[ Parent ]
but who's counting ? n/t (0.00 / 0)


www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
The great contribution of Open Threads to blogging (4.00 / 3)
is the chance for just this sort of petty, personal, insulting, FUN.

And it IS fun - though the Emperor is right, historically Sox fans have needed to enjoy the spring while it lasts.

(History books may give solace to Yankees fans and Englishmen.)

[ Parent ]
Scott Williams and Mike Biundo have been strangely quiet, too (4.00 / 1)
For you young 'uns, Scott is the former Executive Director and Vice Chair of the NHDP. He moved to Rhode Island a few years back when his wife took a job as the state's chief information officer. He's also a belligerent pinstriper who makes Bresler look like a rank amateur.

America was not built on fear. America was built on courage, on imagination and an unbeatable determination to do the job at hand. -Harry Truman
[ Parent ]
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude? (4.00 / 2)
GOP does NOT equal Yankees!

'Member that A-hole, Schilling?

I'm sorry my Emperor. Their jealousy is their sin. Please forgive. Please!

www.KusterforCongress.com  

[ Parent ]
He was Schilling for Jesus n/t (4.00 / 1)


www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
Re: Fernald - (4.00 / 6)
It's worth remembering that the Great Scandal of his views on marriage equality was: they are the same as Obama's, and as most elected progressive Dems.

I liked what I heard in his launch. I will eagerly consider his candidacy.

Agreed re: Marriage (0.00 / 0)
I think you're right to put this in its proper perspective.  

One can take issues with aspects of Mark's candidacy (and I probably will at some point), but it's hard to argue that the guy is anything less than a passionate and well-intended advocate for human rights.  

[ Parent ]
I have to disagree here (4.00 / 1)
First, there were many prominent Democrats and several Republicans who supported marriage equality back before civil unions were created.  When civil unions were put on the table, we lost an incredible amount of support.  It was devastating.  Senators and newspapers who had openly and publicly supported marriage equality before suddenly wouldn't go anywhere near it and that didn't change until just a month ago.  Fernald certainly could have supported marriage equality in 2004 as others did.

However, it was the tone of his response more than the substance of it that was the big problem for me.  It was not artful - it was very forceful.  It may have just been poorly worded, but it stung like hell.

I'm all for putting this behind us and moving forward together.  I accept and commend his movement on this important issue.  I am willing to accept that his words in 2004 came across as more harsh than they were intended.

However, there has been a considerable amount of revisionism going on.  We had a lot of support for marriage back before civil unions.   Had passing civil unions been our goal, we could have passed that back when the Republicans dominated.  They only turned against civil unions when they were the minority party and their votes weren't needed to pass it.  Several Republicans who voted against it had voiced support back when they were the majority party.

The difference is the "moderate" Republicans who used to vote with Democrats on social issues now vote with conservatives now that they are the minority party.

[ Parent ]
Much of this seems just plain wrong. (4.00 / 2)
Had passing civil unions been our goal, we could have passed that back when the Republicans dominated.

No, I don't believe that.

You've been closer to this than me, so I speak with some reluctance, but I think you're the one practicing revisionism. Under the Republicans we couldn't even get Martin Luther King Day through in New Hampshire. There's no way civil unions would have passed.

And the notion that there were politicians, even Senators, who spoke well of marriage equality so long as they they didn't have to vote on any form of it, then deserted when civil unions appeared, seems to me like a strong endorsement of the path that brought us here.

[ Parent ]
Somewhere in the middle (4.00 / 3)
Brian is correct that there were strides on equality when Republicans were in the majority.  The anti-discrimination legislation and adoption/foster parenting bills that were signed by Governor Shaheen mad it to her desk because enough Republicans joined with Democrats to pass the bills. I can't address the quote you cite with respect to civil unions.  Today, however, it is a different story; elected Repbulicans both nationally and in New Hampshire are not what it used to be. I don't think it is because they are the minority party; they started acting like this when they were in the majority. It is because they started acting like this that they are in the minority.  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    
[ Parent ]
Who are these "others"? (4.00 / 1)
Naming names would be helpful here. Were any of the announced candidates for CD-02 in the forefront of this issue in 2004? Has it been documented?

As far as I know, John DeJoie is in the lead if this is your issue because he voted yea on HB436 way back when it lost on the House Floor by one vote. It's clear, it's documented, and it's before victory was in sight. (Note: I have not decided whom to support and am looking forward to hearing from all the candidates on a variety of issues)

Also, it doesn't say much for the Republicans you mention if they were able to deny human rights for some kind of party loyalty. As Jim Splaine has said, argue about the budget, argue about regulations, licensing requirements, boat speed limits..but not the rights of fellow citizens. That's a damning indictment if ever there was one.  

[ Parent ]
None of the individuals that I was thinking of are running for congress (0.00 / 0)
to my knowledge.  Unfortunately, this thread has encompassed both the current the congressional race and the history of lgbt rights in NH, so not all statements were meant to refer to the current race.

We have many excellent candidates for Congress on the Democratic side.  I'm looking forward to seeing where they all stand on a variety of important issues.

[ Parent ]
Well, it started out to be (0.00 / 0)
about Fernald and the marriage issue. It seems he's taken more flack around here than the others on this. Perhaps because he was asked about it a few years ago whereas the others weren't. We don't know what they would have said at the time. Both Governors Lynch and Baldacci were against marriage equality originally, but signed bills anyway.

I'd hate to have an elected official whose mind could never be changed.

[ Parent ]
In 2005, four Republican state senators (0.00 / 0)
personally assured me that if a civil unions bill was introduced in 2007 they would vote for it, but would not vote for marriage.

All four voted against civil unions. It was extremely disappointing.


Doing my best to elect NH Democrats since 1968 and getting better at it every year!

[ Parent ]
Well, as I said before... (0.00 / 0)
Everyone on the journey has their own memories of their journey along the way to marriage equality. As different from mine as Brian's paricipation, sources of information and access the discussions of others, Brian, I believe is honestly  representing his view of the progress over the years from his vantage point.

How many times have you read something, watched something, or listened to something and the person right next to you has an entirely different take on the experience?  

Marriage equality took many people doing many things over many years. Much of it was not centrally organized or controlled, folks did what they could in their own way. And in the end it all worked out.

Doing my best to elect NH Democrats since 1968 and getting better at it every year!

[ Parent ]
You are completely correct in this (0.00 / 0)
I just want to be clear here that the fight for civil unions under the Republicans would have been much harder than it was under the Democrats.  It would have been possible to succeed, but it would have been a much more difficult struggle.

I doubt very much that marriage would have been achievable without a strong Democratic majority and I am very thankful to everyone who worked to make that possible.

[ Parent ]
Putting The Che in Chevy (4.00 / 1)
With the help of a FB pic from Alex's travels in Ecuador, I have formulated a new TV ad that will run on Fox:
Cue Glenn Beck's voice over faint banjo pickin' rendition of "Onward Christian Soldier."
I won't buy a socialist car, which means I won't be buying a GM or Chrysler car for as long as the U.S. government owns huge blocks of the companies.

Today's bankruptcy filing by GM will see the end of a once-great car company and the birth of a federal government-union partnership dressed up as a business.  It won't work, even with the $50 billion federal tax dollars plowed into the new entity past and present, and not even with the UAW's "concessions."

Just say no to Government Motors and Obamacars


Photobucket
(h/t Alex Gallichon)


www.KusterforCongress.com  
I made a political statement (0.00 / 0)
We bought a General Motors product last weekend without knowing it was a political statement. It replaced the General Motors product I had been quite happily driving for 8 years, which replace a General Motors product I had happily driven for 8 years.

Hey, that is a question for second district candidates - what kind of car do you drive?

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

[ Parent ]
That's not as clear as (0.00 / 0)
it seems. Some GM products are made in Mexico and some Toyota products are made in the USA.  
[ Parent ]
Clear enough for me (0.00 / 0)
But enough about me; ask the UAW what they think.  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    
[ Parent ]
Yes the shops (0.00 / 0)
down south are not unionized, but neither are the ones in Mexico.
[ Parent ]
World Series Record By Team and Franchise (0.00 / 0)
New York Yankees
Years Won 26
1923, 1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1943, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, 1962, 1977, 1978, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000

Years Lost
1921, 1922, 1926, 1942, 1955, 1957, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1976, 1981, 2001, 2003

St. Louis Cardinals
Years Won  10
1926, 1931, 1934, 1942, 1944, 1946, 1964, 1967, 1982, 2006
Years Lost
1928, 1930, 1943, 1968, 1985, 1987, 2004

Oakland Athletics
(The first five were won as the Philadelphia Athletics) The A's also won the 1902 AL pennant, but did not have the chance to play the NL Champion Pittsburgh Pirates for the World Championship. The A's lead all AL West teams.

Years Won 9
1910, 1911, 1913, 1929, 1930, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1989
Years Lost 1905, 1914, 1931, 1988, 1990

Boston Red Sox
Years Won  7
1903 (the first World Series), 1912, 1915, 1916, 1918, 2004, 2007

Years Lost
1905, 1914, 1931, 1988, 1990

DD, or shall I call you "Mr.Objective Fact Checker because the numbers don't lie" guy...as the Celtics are to Basketball the Yankees are to Baseball.

Having played in 39 World Series to the Red Sox paltry 12, there is no comparison. They are the greatest franchise in sports history, if you measure by who has won the most titles. More titles is the quirky metric I chose.

The Yankees won in 2000.We crushed you last century and are only one behind in this. You talk pretty big for a one eyed fat man.Our longest drought was 18 years from '78-'96. Hard to find any comparison over time to an 86 year drought from 1918 until 2004. One could say except for the Cubbies, the Sox stunk it up worse than any team that's ever played the game, and longer. Life is long, and you may catch up,but I think the odds are not in your favor. So have your fun, preen,stomp and snark. You'll never have the record of the Yankees, ever.

www.KusterforCongress.com

Your point appears to be: (0.00 / 0)
That your team has sucked as in recent history, largely because the Messiah is punishing its owners and players for arrogance, cheating, and going against His will.

That's how I see it, anyway. :)  Have fun in second place, Emperor.

[ Parent ]
Keep living in the past, O Emperor of All that is Evil. (0.00 / 0)

If remembrance of things past suffices, all is good.  

"But, in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." Si se puede. Yes we can.  
[ Parent ]
like a Bruins fan ? n/t (0.00 / 0)


www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
we never won one with A-Rod , but your two were with juicers (0.00 / 0)
Manny and...???

www.KusterforCongress.com
No Evidence (0.00 / 0)
There is no evidence that Manny was on the juice with Red Sox.  Personally, I don't think he was, as the man is too goofy to stick to a schdule for more than a couple of weeks. . . .

As opposed to A-Roid, Giambi, Clemens, Pettite, Sheffield, and on and on

[ Parent ]
they don't try to mask that with other drugs do they ? n/t (0.00 / 0)


www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
Oh, Jon (4.00 / 2)
I don't think you want to go down that road.

Face facts - change is winning in this century. And so are the Red Sox.  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

[ Parent ]
like we've said before (0.00 / 0)
life is long and I'll be fine...the analogy to Dems resurgent misses the 'pendulum' meme...you better not count your chickens too soon

www.KusterforCongress.com
[ Parent ]
Not good (0.00 / 0)
We are very surprised and deeply disappointed in the manner in which the Obama administration has defended the so-called Defense of Marriage Act against Smelt v. United States, a lawsuit brought in federal court in California by a married same-sex couple asking the federal government to treat them equally with respect to federal protections and benefits. The administration is using many of the same flawed legal arguments that the Bush administration used. These arguments rightly have been rejected by several state supreme courts as legally unsound and obviously discriminatory.

http://www.americablog.com/200...

I'm an optimist here (4.00 / 1)
In my opinion, the Obama Administration is maintaining the status quo on this (and other media-intensive issues) until health care is done.  This is the priority, and they learned from the Clinton experience how easy it is to lose control of the debate.

The President and Secretary of State clearly do not believe in DOMA.  There will be a change in how the federal government respects gay men and women -- we've already seen an early sign re: the recent State Department announcement on same-sex benefits for overseas foreign service personnel.

[ Parent ]
Some more information... (4.00 / 1)
Take a look at this piece in the Washington Blade.  Here are gay lawyers very much committed to marriage equality explaining how this works:

http://www.washblade.com/thela...  

In part . . .

"The statute sucks," Raben said. "It's disgusting. We've opposed it from day one. We'll continue to oppose it, but the Department of Justice is doing what the Department of Justice does, which is defend the statute."

Nan Hunter, a lesbian Georgetown University law professor, also said the Justice Department "almost always defends the constitutionality of federal statutes."

Raben said there are "tiny, tiny exceptions" to that rule "when the statute is otherwise unlawful," but added that the number of cases in which this exception has been applied are small and "you could put all of those in a thimble."

He then goes on to explain why this case did not qualify to be one of those few exceptions.  (Many of you know Robert, a long-time advocate and openly gay U.S. assistant attorney general for legislative affairs under President Clinton.)



Doing my best to elect NH Democrats since 1968 and getting better at it every year!

[ Parent ]
OK (0.00 / 0)
But I still don't like it.
[ Parent ]
I do not claim (4.00 / 1)
to begin to understand the ways of Washington. I am trying but it still makes little sense to me...so far.  

Doing my best to elect NH Democrats since 1968 and getting better at it every year!
[ Parent ]
Open Thread: Cross-Pollination Edition | 49 comments
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