9 Comments: "Lone Gunmen"

To try to peg this tragedy (4.00 / 2)

on conservatives is as out-of-line as it is outrageous.  

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by: ChrisCrawfordNH @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:28:52 PM CST

Fingerprints: (0.00 / 0)

right here.

"Words matter," as George Will and others lecture us.

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by: elwood @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:33:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Give me a break (4.00 / 1)

There is no doubt in ANYONE's mind that Sarah Palin was not calling for the assasination for any members of congress. She used an analogy that resonated. The term "take aim" and many others that are traditionally used to describe shooting are frequenty used in political discourse. It was a stupid idea to put crosshairs over the people's home districts, but it was in no way interpreted by anyone to mean that they should harm anyone. How you get from the link above to a shooting in Arizona defies reason.

There are NO indications that this person was influenced by Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, or anyone who is to the right of them. This person was simply crazy.

I suggest you listen to the advice to keep politics out of this - especially when politics had no part in it.  

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by: ChrisCrawfordNH @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:41:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"An analogy that resonated." (0.00 / 0)

We agree on that.

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by: elwood @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:43:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

go tell that bullshit (4.00 / 7)

to Dr. George Tiller.

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by: susanthe @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:55:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

???!!!! (4.00 / 6)

Nope, politics had no part in it. What a ridiculous idea.

The toxic sludge that poured out of this guy's TV and Radio clearly had no effect on him at all. Clearly.

With Reagan, you maybe would have a point. Jodie Foster wasn't an election issue, IIRC.

This is more like the assassination of Martin Luther King.

Which as we know had nothing to do with race.

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by: Mike Caulfield @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 18:31:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

In no way interpreted by anyone??? (0.00 / 0)

Seems like that would be a pretty difficult argument to prove...

Maybe not by a reasonable person, but I think if anything is clear, it is that whomever is responsible for this heinous act was without reason.

Feeling hopeful since 2004...

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by: Kelly Nordstrom @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 20:17:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

oh there is doubt in my mind (0.00 / 0)

I may not be the guy to say this, but there is plenty of doubt about that, Chris, at least in MY mind.  Sarah's graphic speaks for itself, and what it says ain't pretty.

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by: TimothyHorrigan @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 22:56:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Why do you need a break today? This event is not about you. (0.00 / 0)

Self-centered people should not presume to advise other people, since they are rarely clued in to what's going on.

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by: hannah @ Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 03:39:37 AM CST

[ Parent ]

and that playground built and funded by (0.00 / 0)

Rove, Pataki, Citizens United et al.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. HST

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by: JonnyBBad @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:44:57 PM CST

I will also add (0.00 / 0)

on the subject of politics on this day, there has been no one on the right that I have seen who has made a political issue of this. Everyone is simply offering their condolences. On FOX News, even they are simply praising the work of the congresswoman and talking about how it seems that no one is making this a political issue. . .

But on MSNBC, Luke Russert talked about how her office had been vandalized during the healthcare debate, and as such repeal should be put off. He also added that we should begin the debate for stricter gun laws

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by: ChrisCrawfordNH @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:45:25 PM CST

well Chris (0.00 / 0)

freerepublic's site  crashed today under the weight of all the backslapping teabaggers.  

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by: susanthe @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:49:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

elaborate please n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: ChrisCrawfordNH @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:51:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I heard those same things on Fox today (0.00 / 0)

So please don't bash MSNBC for doing the same reporting that Fake News has done.

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by: Timmy J @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 17:54:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

What Strikes Me (4.00 / 2)

Is that when violence comes from the Left, e.g. Weather Underground, it is flown up the hightest flagpole and tied like an albatross around the necks of all on the Left.

When a right wing whackadoo snaps, the associations are minimized, if not down to the "lone gunman."

I'm not prepared to assign this POS to a group, but there is plenty to discuss on how the rightwing hatemongers have fluffed up fanaticism.

Chris, take your damage control, self delusional denials someplace else. Your tolerance of over the top rhetoric gives cover to Kelly Ayottes tolerance of the same.

You fan the flames because you feel cozy knowing you and your kind are not likely to get burned. Yet, our Democracy dies.

Tell your friends that they are accomplices to the craziness that is out there. If not this shooting, then there is plenty to be ashamed of.

And, spare me the litany of false equivalences.


"Ill writers are usually the sharpest censors." - John Dryden

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 18:04:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There is a core contradiction in the conservative ideology (0.00 / 0)

in that all of their propaganda is based on the assumption that human behavior responds to and is, therefore, able to be directed by "prompts."  Which is why they repeat their agenda and misinformation ad infinitum.  However, when a person acts on those prompts and, especially when the resulting acts are negative/detrimental, it's the responder, not the prompter, that's the cause.

It's called "personal responsibility."  It boils down to giving orders and rejecting any responsibility for having them carried out.  Perhaps it's not accurate to call that a contradiction.  What it is is a clever ideological twist which enables conservatives/authoritarians to have their cake (influence) and eat it too (no responsibility).

There are many facets to the Party of No.

Anyway, there's no point in turning their arguments against them.  A killer is responsible for the kill.  But, that's also true of people who kill in cold blood (state executioners) and people who promote the extermination of people they don't like, whether haphazardly or in "authorized" military assaults.  The Sons of Cain are into killing their own kind, sooner or later.  Those who do it later, have learned that human husbandry is a less risky and more productive enterprise.

I mention human husbandry because National Human Trafficking Awareness Day is coming up on January 11.  And human trafficking is, clearly, one of the components of human husbandry, the exploitation of our own kind, often with less regard for the welfare of the rights of the exploited than we have learned to employ with other kinds of animals. Presumably, the trafficking is objectionable because the individuals do not consent and are visibly coerced to relocate and labor to their own detriment.  If they were persuaded to subordinate themselves (as in signing up for the military, for example) it would be morally OK.

The killing in Arizona should not be considered in isolation.

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by: hannah @ Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 03:36:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Where this goes next (4.00 / 4)

is Oklahoma City.

But let's wait a couple weeks to talk about it. It's uncouth to talk about right now.

And let's not point out who is actually spreading the lies, that's rude.

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by: Mike Caulfield @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 18:21:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

and Columbine n/t (0.00 / 0)

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. HST

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by: JonnyBBad @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 21:57:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A guy flew a plane into an IRS building recently. (0.00 / 0)

9/11 style.

But if he's right-wing, it's not terrorism?

--
Freedom is not a fiscal issue. Hope 2012.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 23:13:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

*American right-wing (0.00 / 0)

--
Freedom is not a fiscal issue. Hope 2012.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 23:14:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Political Grandstanding (4.00 / 15)

Is taking this and saying, see, you must pass stimulus. Or gun control laws. Or something like that, I guess.

It's not political grandstanding to say that when you romanticize political violence as being anti-authoritarian instead of anti-democratic -- when you say hey, bringing weapons to Obama events reminds him who's boss, wink, wink, nudge, nudge -- when you put targets on congresspeople, and mock bricks through windows as a bit of harmless fun (why's she such a crybaby?)....

Yes, yes, yes. You are responsible. Absolutely.

How many times do we have to watch this -- crazy, tea party and Alex Jones fueled nutjobs doing this, shooting cops, trying to kill the "Soros mob", packing shotguns and drawing up Obama assassination plans. And then every time it happens someone steps forward and says, well, the guy was nuts, no one's fault.

Everyone that creates this environment is at fault, and to the extent the gunman is REALLY crazy they are more culpable than the gunman. And the people that step out and say we can't talk about the fact the gunman seems to believe some crazy things that he or she probably thought were not so crazy because they were presented on cable tv as reality -- they are culpable too.

I don't care "whose team" he was on. It doesn't matter. What I do care about is that we have a 24/7 media, largely funded by conservatives, that romanticizes political violence and political threat. That traffics in (and may actually produce) chain emails that claim Obama stole the gold out of Fort Knox, is going to round people up into FEMA camps, put Republicans at the back of the line for heart transplants,  and kill your grandma. They do this because they think it gets people to the polls. And that's how we got here.

And today it stops.

Period, period, period.

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by: Mike Caulfield @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 18:09:33 PM CST

Very well said (4.00 / 2)

I don't agree with i all, but well said.  

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by: ChrisCrawfordNH @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 18:30:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm sorry I don't mean to attack you. (4.00 / 2)

But I am just -- I feel like my insides have caved in here, watching this happen.

I'm not so much angry as heartbroken.

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by: Mike Caulfield @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 18:33:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

this'll give you the chills (4.00 / 2)

Gabrielle Gifford talking about being on Palin's crosshairs map:

Also, Chuck Todd is a putz.  

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by: susanthe @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 18:49:41 PM CST

Heartbreaking: (4.00 / 7)

"We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list. But the thing is the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun site over our district. People do that they've got to realize there's consequences to that action."

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 19:01:26 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Crosshairs Killer (0.00 / 0)

Rep.Giffords is Jewish, and has been in Israel. This wackadoo loved Mein Kampf. jes saayin'...

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. HST

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by: JonnyBBad @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 21:59:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Zimmerman (0.00 / 0)

Jewish

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. HST

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by: JonnyBBad @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 22:15:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Excellent coverage (0.00 / 0)

at the local station - and there is a live stream:

www.kold.com

Some notes:

* The local sheriff blasted the hate rhetoric that surrounded Giffords all the time.

* The federal judge killed just happened to be stopping by the event, so it seems pretty clear it was Giffords targeted.

* There is a "suspicious device" at Giffords office in the shape of "a coffee can" that police will be blowing up any minute now.

* the medical spokesperson (a former US Surgeon General) seemed a lot less cheery about Gifford's chances than the original surgeon's press conference.

AWFUL.

* looking into a possible connection to another person.

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 19:47:10 PM CST

More: (4.00 / 3)

* 2 men wrestled the gunman to the ground while he still had bullets in his clip and was shooting.

* 2nd person "of interest": a white male in his 50s.

* Sheriff: "the vitriol that comes out of some people's mouths about tearing down the government... Arizona has become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

* suspect has not been speaking

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 19:58:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

More: (0.00 / 0)

neighbor of gunman sold home and moved in part because he thought the gunman's father was crazy.

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 20:12:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Tell It Jack (4.00 / 2)

You got it exactly right.

Any attempt to suggest, "well both sides do it" is outrageous, exceedingly dangerous nonsense.

Has the left ever put anyone in the crosshairs?
Do any liberals stoke the fires of hate and violence?

For the survival of democracy we must not appease.

Palin took the website down because it was obvious it did provoke violence. We can not rest until the right (which are anything but conservatives) takes responsibility for what they've incited and stop it.  

No'm Sayn?

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by: BurtCohen @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 20:01:42 PM CST

My friend Chris (4.00 / 3)

is a good kid. We don't agree on many things, but I feel his heart is in the right place.

However, I often catch playing nice with folks that are deleterious to civil discourse on political issues. In a way, it is easy to see him going along to get along. The GOP is going through a tough time with batshit crazy becoming the norm.

Sane GOPers are waiting it out.

BUT, they are also riding the wave. They have thrown a yoke on the rabid assholes out there. This tolerance of a "necessary evil" is flat out wrong.

I wasn't old enough to condemn those on the Left that crossed the line, back in the day. So I can only imagine what it would be like to have to walk away from a friend or look them in the eye, giving their perspective the thumbs down.

On this very blog, we can track fairly heated arguements over policy and politics. The range is left to center Right. I read the NH conservative blogs. They argue far Right to further Right. Moderates need not speak in their circles.

"Ill writers are usually the sharpest censors." - John Dryden

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 20:21:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I appreciate your kind words (0.00 / 0)

and will let you know that with the formation of my PAC, I'm not just going to support candidates. I'm looking to have a stake in the conservative movement and change it where I see fit.  Don't wanna talk too much about it on this thread, though

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by: ChrisCrawfordNH @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 23:31:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

from Pia: (4.00 / 4)

An unthinkable tragedy occurred at our Congress On Your Corner event today in Tucson. Our community has lost beloved friends and colleagues, and many more are injured. Our hearts and prayers go out to all of them and to those who are suffering the loss of treasured friends and family members.

Congresswoman Giffords is dedicated to serving the people of Southern Arizona. It was in this spirit that our office organized today's event. We will make further statements as details become available. We offer thanks to the law enforcement, first responders, and medical personnel who work to save lives and mend the injured.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c...

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 20:16:28 PM CST

The little girl killed (0.00 / 0)

was just elected to student council and went to the event to meet a public servant.

Giffords' staffer killed was engaged to be married.

71 year old church-going man killed; wife injured.  He pulled himself down on top of her, perhaps in an effort to protect her.

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 21:13:50 PM CST

Paul Hodes on FB: (4.00 / 1)

Peggo and I are devastated by the news of the violent attack in Arizona today. All of our thoughts are with our good friend Gaby Giffords, her family, her staff, and the other victims there.

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 21:18:45 PM CST

Jeanne Shaheen on FB: (0.00 / 0)

"All my thoughts and prayers are with Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, her family and friends, and with all the families and friends of the victims of today's senseless attack. This is an unthinkable tragedy. Such violence has no place in our society." - Jeanne

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 21:24:24 PM CST

light a virtual candle (4.00 / 1)

and send a message to Rep. Gifford's staff, here:

http://act.truemajorityaction....

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by: susanthe @ Sat Jan 08, 2011 at 21:39:20 PM CST

Imagine (0.00 / 0)

Imagine if a black  follower of Islam had a webpage trolling for money with Republican congressman in crosshairs-----THINK THIS WOULD BE ONLY WORDS? Think they would be out walking around free???

The people that use the  "lock and load" " "reload" and "2nd amendment solution" language have to bear credit for our current political climate !
This climate egged on a nutjob, plain and simple!

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by: tchair @ Sun Jan 09, 2011 at 17:37:02 PM CST