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Jason Soren's Free State Vision. Now it's a reality in the making.

by: Chaz Proulx

Mon Mar 07, 2011 at 11:05:24 AM EST


Here's the original blue print for taking taking over New Hampshire:

Announcement:
The Free State Project

by Jason Sorens
jason.sorens@yale.edu

Special to TLE

Note from the author (7/2/04): This article was the first exploration of the idea of a "free state strategy." Needless to say, the present-day Free State Project differs from the proposals of this article in some respects. In particular, the article overemphasizes the possibility of secession. Nevertheless, I think it's still of historical interest.

Libertarian activists need to face a somber reality: nothing's working.

Partisan politics has clearly failed: Libertarian presidential candidates consistently fail to break the one per cent barrier, while no Libertarian candidate has ever won election to a federal office. What is the chance that a Libertarian presidential candidate will get even 5% of the presidential vote in the next, say, 20 years? Virtually zero; I'd be willing to bet the farm on that. And what about the chance that Libertarians will take over the Presidency, Congress, and Supreme Court and enact their entire program? One would have to be utterly delusional to consider this a possibility so long as the United States' political system exists in its current form.

Noting the massive failure of partisan politics, some activists have argued that what we need is education. Unfortunately, the successes of education have come and gone. In academia, free-market ideas (though even then, not radical libertarian ones) were fresh and exciting in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Today there is a backlash against libertarian ideas (caricatured as "neoliberalism") in all disciplines. Political scientists view neoclassical economics as politically naïve, while even economists have become bored with perfect-market models and have gone back to thinking up new exceptions to the rule.

In response to this argument, Chris Tame of the British Libertarian Alliance believes that we should take a very long-run view. The victory of liberty will take centuries to complete, and we should not be too hasty to abandon the project of remaking intellectual and popular culture. There are several problems with this view. First, it is very depressing for those of who would like to see some measure of freedom in our lifetimes. Second, what's to prevent the welfare state from winning in the long-run? It has the advantage of fulfilling the interests of elites in government. Reinstating freedom would require repeated large sacrifices by these people. Since people act in self-interest most of the time, the most sensible prediction is that elites will never give up their power; rather, they will reinforce it whenever possible.

Third, the long-run perspective ignores the fact that world affairs are currently at the cusp of a new direction. Freedom can still win out, at least in some areas, but if it does not the prospects are dire. One doesn't have to see black helicopters everywhere to note that ad hoc world governance structures are already in place. NATO, the OSCE, the practice of economic sanctions, and UN peacekeeping are just a few institutions and policies that effectively prevent nominally independent countries from pursuing policies that conflict in any substantial fashion from the will of Washington, D.C. The OECD is currently pursuing measures to punish so-called "tax havens."(1) Their low tax rates are draining capital from Western welfare states, and the welfare states want to cut off the spigot. The proposed method of extortion is familiar: economic sanctions. The vaunted benefits of capital mobility and encryption technology thus have failed to materialize, and governments continue to grow, even relative to the private economy. The implications should be clear: if we do not carve out a sphere for freedom now, freedom will be lost for a long time to come.

Some individuals have noted the hopelessness of both mass-based party politics and mass-based education. They have advocated instead the creation of a new libertarian nation. These ideas have tended to be on the fringe of the libertarian movement, simply due to their impracticality, not to mention the fraudulent nature of many of them. They invariably are run by one or two decidedly eccentric individuals who ask for substantial "investments" so that they can start work on the "infrastructure," typically of some floating island. I have to note that I think the Awdal Roads Project (www.awdal.com) is legitimate, but there are not many American libertarians I know who would be willing to move to Somalia. What we need is a libertarian project that we can undertake right here in the U.S.

Some activism of this sort has been tried, involving "monkey-wrenching" à la Claire Wolfe, "dropping out," not using government services, etc. The problem with these strategies is that: 1) they are small-scale and unlikely to make a noticeable difference; 2) the more radical projects require abandoning family and friends and leading a lone wolf lifestyle; 3) refraining from using government services in many cases hurts us (financially) and helps them, by making it cheaper for them to provide government services.(2)

I would like to propose a solution based both on my dissertation research and suggestions from commentators whom I respect: secession (or at least the threat of it). Walter Williams recently wrote in WorldNetDaily:

Americans who wish to live free have two options: We can resist, fight and risk bloodshed to force America's tyrants to respect our liberties and human rights, or we can seek a peaceful resolution of our irreconcilable differences by separating. That can be done by peopling several states, say Texas and Louisiana, controlling their legislatures and then issuing a unilateral declaration of independence just as the Founders did in 1776.(3)

Other well-known libertarians have been advocating similar measures. The pro-secession views of lewrockwell.com and the Ludwig von Mises Institute are well known. Jim Peron told me he advocates peopling New Zealand with libertarians and making it into a libertarian country. Unfortunately, his immigration visa was denied for political reasons. Perhaps he will come to the U.S. and help us.

What I propose is a Free State Project, in which freedom-minded people of all stripes (libertarians, anarcho-capitalists, pacifists, even people who just call themselves liberals or conservatives - the only requirement is that you pledge that you will work to reducing government to the minimal functions of protecting life, liberty, and property), establish residence in a small state and take over the state government. I have been running some figures to see how plausible this strategy would be. There are about 40,000 paid Libertarian party members, and the number of dedicated freedom-minded people out there is undoubtedly at least twice that. In the last election the Libertarian Party won 3.2 million unique votes, 400,000 for President; 80 for every LP member in the former case, 10 in the latter. If even half of the LP membership moves to a particular state, we can expect 200,000 votes for the LP presidential candidate just from that state. Furthermore, LP vote percentages are higher for state offices: typically on the order of 2-3%, compared to 0.5% for President. If we multiply 200,000 by 4, we get 800,000 votes for governor and state legislature each. This figure is far in excess of that needed to take over some small states. For example, in Wyoming, the smallest state in the Union, there were 213,659 valid ballots cast in the 2000 U.S. Senate race. (Of course, it's mathematically impossible to get 800,000 votes in a state like Wyoming, but the point is that even 20,000 hardcore libertarian activists can go a long way in a small state.)

Once we've taken over the state government, we can slash state and local budgets, which make up a sizeable proportion of the tax and regulatory burden we face every day. Furthermore, we can eliminate substantial federal interference by refusing to take highway funds and the strings attached to them. Once we've accomplished these things, we can bargain with the national government over reducing the role of the national government in our state. We can use the threat of secession as leverage to do this.

But didn't we fight a war over secession almost 150 years ago? Wouldn't the feds just send in the troops to crush our little experiment? The answer, in short, is no. In "modern, democratic" countries the use of violence against legal secessionist movements is out of the question. For example, no one advocates using force to prevent Quebec from leaving Canada if it so decides. The assumption underlying their recent referendum on secession was that if secession achieved a majority vote, negotiations would immediately begin toward a peaceful separation. The same holds for independence movements in Scotland, Wales, Flanders, Padania, Catalonia, and elsewhere. Indeed, the U.S. has militarily attacked countries for the way in which they treated separatist insurgencies. If the fedgov tried to go Milosevic on us free-staters, how would that look? The key is that we need to pursue secession within the political system, electorally. Attempting it extra-legally is a recipe for disaster, as the Republic of Texas fiasco has demonstrated.

There is another advantage to the strategy of secession. It is a sort of "stealth-libertarian" strategy. Most people have a lot of state pride. I used to live in Texas, and it was the general assumption among Texans that we could easily go it alone and become independent, but we stayed in the U.S. merely out of a sense of graciousness and condescension. In other words, people might well vote for a general secessionist party even if they wouldn't vote for an overtly libertarian party. Of course, once secession is achieved, libertarianism is the likely outcome if we've concentrated our forces. Furthermore, independent small states are forced to follow relatively libertarian policies to remain economically viable.

Even if we don't actually secede, we can force the federal government to compromise with us and grant us substantial liberties. Scotland and Quebec have both used the threat of secession to get large subsidies and concessions from their respective national governments. We could use our leverage for liberty.

This strategy seems eminently workable within the next decade. The only difficulty is what game theorists refer to as a "coordination problem." If I know that other libertarians will join me in moving to a certain state, it's in my interests to move there too, but if I think others won't join me, I might as well stay where I friends and a good job. Everyone else thinks the same way, and no one moves. For that reason, I think we do need a formal organizational structure. We need a sort of pledge to which we can get freedom-minded people to sign their names, similar to the Separation of School and State pledge. We would pledge to move to any state which is decided on by a majority of the members of the "Free State Society." (The details of how the voting would ensue could be worked out. My current idea is that we could have a list of states with less than 1 million population. Once the "Free State Society" reaches 20,000 members we could vote on these sequentially, with the lowest vote getters being eliminated in each round. Votes would be made public each time to forestall fears of manipulation.) Since as libertarians we respect contracts, we would rightly feel duty bound to honor our pledges. The coordination problem would be solved.

Unfortunately, I am neither an "organizer" type nor a well-known libertarian "personality." I'm an aspiring political scientist, a thinker; I don't know the first thing about leading, and my name doesn't have cache. But if luminaries like, perhaps, Walter Williams and L. Neil Smith sign onto this project, and other motivated people join to help along with the leg work, we can really get this project off the ground. We have to start a snowball effect.

It is exciting to me that we might have a real shot at true freedom in our lifetimes. Certainly, there will be inconveniences. We might have to move away from friends and family; there might be spells of unemployment; we might have to take careers that are not our first choice. But I can't believe that we've gone so soft that we won't tolerate these inconveniences for a possibility at attaining true liberty. Our forefathers bled and died - because of the Stamp Tax! The Free State Project requires nothing of that kind, and the stakes are so much higher. How much is liberty worth to you?

If you are interested in joining this project, please e-mail me at freestateproject_com@yahoo.com and give me your address. I've already met some others who are interested. I am going to draw up a simple pledge and some straightforward bylaws for the Free State Society and start collecting signatures. I'm open to all kinds of feedback; again, I'm hoping this project really becomes a decentralized affair - I don't want to be a dictator of my own little club, and I don't want your money.

Chaz Proulx :: Jason Soren's Free State Vision. Now it's a reality in the making.
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Two Chilling Statements from Mr. Sorens (0.00 / 0)
What I propose is a Free State Project, in which freedom-minded people of all stripes (libertarians, anarcho-capitalists, pacifists, even people who just call themselves liberals or conservatives - the only requirement is that you pledge that you will work to reducing government to the minimal functions of protecting life, liberty, and property), establish residence in a small state and take over the state government.

Once we've taken over the state government, we can slash state and local budgets, which make up a sizeable proportion of the tax and regulatory burden we face every day. Furthermore, we can eliminate substantial federal interference by refusing to take highway funds and the strings attached to them. Once we've accomplished these things, we can bargain with the national government over reducing the role of the national government in our state. We can use the threat of secession as leverage to do this.


Sure doesn't sound (0.00 / 0)
very patriotic to me.  But I guess patriotism is the old GOP and secession is the new.  

[ Parent ]
Is this Freedom? (0.00 / 0)
Lucy--(and all other reasonable people)

The "government is always bad" premise or the Free State Project ( and Ronald Reagan and the Teaparty etc) is fatally flawed because the abuses of power are ubiquitous. 

In short---Upsetting the balance of power between the public and the private will result in unchallenged corporate abuse at the very least and warlords running the show at the very worst.

When this was just theory it was disturbing, but as we see this play out it's a game changer for me. If these people want a fight their going to get it.


[ Parent ]
Their=they are (0.00 / 0)
where's my proofreader?

[ Parent ]
If Libertarianism was an Excel file, (0.00 / 0)
it would be a circular reference.

They define the good as that which is freely chosen.  Yet, as Sorens describes above, Libertarians do not win elections.  Why?  People do not want absolute freedom.  People freely choose to not choose Libertarianism, thus, by it's own standards, it fails.

 

In the immediate aftermath of Since the start of the financial crisis, the Fed/Treasury lent, spent, or guaranteed $28 $29 trillion to save the banking system.


[ Parent ]
Just like in our little towns (0.00 / 0)
there are people who deny the government has any right to make zoning and land use regulations, because it's their land and they have the right to do anything they want with it.  

However, they do NOT want their neighbors to be able to do anything they want with THEIR land, because it might infringe on the value or use of the government-hater's property.  

That's why we don't really want absolute freedom and we do create governments, among other reasons.  All human societies create governments, in some form, because when we live together we need a way to share resources and mediate conflicts.  Otherwise it is each man (this is really for men, you know, not the people they own) for himself, and guns everywhere.  I think I have heard something about that recently?  Get rid of those pesky taxes and get everyone a gun?


[ Parent ]
Libertarians are socially inept people who feel excluded (0.00 / 0)
and then exclude themselves to retain some semblance of control over their destinies.  They've got no sense of community; no sense of time or place, either.  Sad.

It's hard to get accepted by a group you want to destroy.


The party of twisted logic. Individuals unite! n/t (0.00 / 0)


In the immediate aftermath of Since the start of the financial crisis, the Fed/Treasury lent, spent, or guaranteed $28 $29 trillion to save the banking system.

[ Parent ]
Nonsense and I can prove it (0.00 / 0)
Hannah, I cordially invite you to attend PorcFest this year.  I promise you will see social people, massive inclusion, a sense of community, good times, good places, and happiness.  Many hundreds of people... from all walks of life, very diverse - gay and straight, male and female, black and white, rich and poor, political and apolitical, NH natives and movers.

That invitation is open to any and all of you. In fact, I'll happily introduce any of you around if you wish, and believe me, it won't be astroturf, or Koch funded, you will see for yourself how real it is.

http://porcfest.com June 20 - June 26, 2011
(especially the weekend, especially if you only visit for a day or two)

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
A party is not a community. A sense of community grows out of (4.00 / 5)
sharing and caring on a full-time basis.

[ Parent ]
That 'party' is about celebrating a growing community (0.00 / 0)
If you assume that's only a 'party', you're entirely missing what it's about.  There is a Free Stater Community, including lots of non-movers already in NH, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not.  That community has existed for over 6 years now.... it's had weddings and divorces, childbirths and deaths (mostly relatives of movers, so far), trials and tribulations, times of victory and times of defeat, internal strife and moments of circling the wagons together.  

Your comments about libertarians being socially inept people is true about some of them, like all stereotypes have some truth, including some obvious examples.  But if you wish to see counter-examples, as I said, I'd be glad to introduce you around.  Or not.  Open Invite to anyone who wishes.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
The fatal flaw (4.00 / 1)
Here is the fatal flaw in his reasoning:

There is another advantage to the strategy of secession. It is a sort of "stealth-libertarian" strategy. Most people have a lot of state pride. I used to live in Texas, and it was the general assumption among Texans that we could easily go it alone and become independent, but we stayed in the U.S. merely out of a sense of graciousness and condescension. In other words, people might well vote for a general secessionist party even if they wouldn't vote for an overtly libertarian party.

Granite Staters love our country too much to let some crackpot talk us into seceeding.

[And how many of you guys rolled your eyes when I had this debate at BH about a year or so ago with a certain former state senator?  Thought it was just a foolish theoritical debate?]



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


Rolling eyes--I hear you! (4.00 / 1)
Kathy,

Boy am I with you. Even my friends rolled their eyes when I wrote at NH INSIDER surrounded by loudmouths.

Few people thought that that place represented anything but some fringe thinking that was disturbing buy non threatening to our way of life.

So if I say so myself--"I told you so"   LOL

(I should point out that Mike Em was always there fighting the good fight. He earned their hatred--I can't think of a better reward.)


[ Parent ]
And how is Texas doing now Jason? (0.00 / 0)

Graciousness and condescension???  

how about pigheadedness and hubris.



[ Parent ]
Yeah, this Jason is just a wacko! (0.00 / 0)
What a nutjob! Crazy!
Like anyone would ever move for this idea?  Absurd.
And even if they did, they'd be wasting their time... it's not like they'd make a difference, or  get elected.

Ok, now that we've got that out of the way... (someone had to say it... someone always does.)

I've had more talks with Jason than many about this very topic, and he's the first to admit that using his original essay isn't an accurate picture of what is actually happening (which the added header in 2004 says but now imagine another 7 years later... and most of the change happening within those 7 years since 2004)
Developments have occurred far different than he or anyone would have imagined...  I believe he's planning a new essay on the 10th anniversary, and I look forward to reading it.

From the moving pictures are worth 1million words dept:
This year, Libertopia, a documentary about 3 FSP movers, BH's own Andrew Carroll, Will Buchanan - (who, like GrannyD, walked across the US for his beliefs), and Matt Simon (Chaz and I met through Matt, a fine activist in the cause of marijuana reform), will be released -  http://libertopiafilm.com

Christina Heller, director of the film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
She started off pretty liberal before she met all these libertarians... and it looks like it wore off on her, according to her interview.  But the film clearly is NOT about rightwingers, she did a good job of showing the diversity in the FSP.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


There is nothing in this diary except (4.00 / 4)
the exact words of Mr. Soren.

No commentary whatsoever.

It's remarkable how uncomfortable that makes you.


[ Parent ]
Typical Libertarianism, Elwood. (4.00 / 3)
They use a hard-core philosophy to agitate for what they want and then re-define their positions when challenged.  "Oh, that's not what we meant."  It's successful because there are grains of truth in some of their positions, it's just the whole of the argument that is corrupt.

Stealth Libertarianism.  The electorate is beginning to get a good look at the bizarre legislation coming from the "zany sideshow."  Just a short 17 months to correction election day.
 

In the immediate aftermath of Since the start of the financial crisis, the Fed/Treasury lent, spent, or guaranteed $28 $29 trillion to save the banking system.


[ Parent ]
Our friend Seth is proud of taking Koch's Americans for Prosperity pledge (4.00 / 3)

and the Tenth Amendment Center's nullification pledge. And wild man Ed Naile's anti-tax pledge.

He and his wife moved to NH in 2004 as part of the Free State Project to take over our state and is a founder of the Natural Rights Counsel (along with 'hands-off-my-junk Manuse)

Of course your post makes him uncomfortable.  


[ Parent ]
Mike, that has to be (0.00 / 0)
the ultimate comment!  You exactly capture what I have been thinking about all this back and forth: "Of course your post makes him uncomfortable."  Otherwise why would he be spending time typing so many words into comment boxes.  

[ Parent ]
No secret there. (0.00 / 0)
Anyone who googles Seth Cohn Free State Project finds that... or heck, anyone who read the Concord Monitor in 2005, when I ran for School Board.  No mystery at all - no secret Koch funding either.

And as for pledges: I'm the one who posted them on my website, and yes, I wouldn't have taken then if I didn't agree with them, and plan on honoring them.  The mailer attack piece sent the weekend before Election Day 2010 focused on the 10th amendment pledge as proof I was 'too extreme'.  The voters disagreed.

I'm proud of my founding of the Natural Rights Council, because I believe in Article 2 of the NH Constitution.  Don't you?

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
so you went door to door (0.00 / 0)
telling folks that you were running for office because you are a Free Stater who  believes in privatizing everything, in eliminating the NH government, and seceding from the union?


[ Parent ]
No... (0.00 / 0)
Because I don't believe in privatizing everything, eliminating the NH government, and seceding from the union. Not one of those 3.  You haven't been listening to me, if you think I do believe ANY of those.  You really need to let your judgements go about what freestaters are...

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.

[ Parent ]
I've no intention of (0.00 / 0)
letting my judgements about Free Staters go. Some of you want exactly those things - and you personally have shown a remarkable facility for saying one thing, while going along with the crowd, Rep. Cohn. You do it as a member of the Clown College Under the Golden Dome that is passing as a state legislature this year.  

[ Parent ]
Yet you were described by the Monitor yesterday (4.00 / 1)
as a "Republican" who ran on the "economy."

Fascinating.

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker


[ Parent ]
Both of which are 100% true (n/t) (0.00 / 0)


BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.

[ Parent ]
Flim flam Cohn-Artist. n/t (0.00 / 0)


In the immediate aftermath of Since the start of the financial crisis, the Fed/Treasury lent, spent, or guaranteed $28 $29 trillion to save the banking system.

[ Parent ]
yes (4.00 / 1)
we've all been admiring your hard work on the economy.  

[ Parent ]
Not uncomfortable at all (0.00 / 0)
You've confusing 'original inspiration' with 'current reality', and I'm trying to explain the difference, to folks who don't understand.

Don't forget, the first elected FSPer was a Democrat.  The next few were Republicans.  They didn't always even vote the same way, because they are individuals.  Always.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
Poor Seth (4.00 / 6)
"trying to explain the difference, to folks who don't understand."  I hope you didnt' mean that to be as insulting as it sounds.

Don't confuse the exploration here of the genesis of the free state project (and whether the secessionism aspect present at its creation still lives on today) with BH'ers not understanding you. We do. We just reject the whole thing as out there on the fringes.  If we resent the effort to turn New Hampshire into Ayn Rand Land, well, what did you expect? That we would just turn the keys over to you?

The Republican Party may have rolled over for you, but New Hampshire Democrats are made of hardier stock.




"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


[ Parent ]
Faustian bargain, as the Republicans are discovering. n/t (4.00 / 1)


In the immediate aftermath of Since the start of the financial crisis, the Fed/Treasury lent, spent, or guaranteed $28 $29 trillion to save the banking system.

[ Parent ]
Let's be clear: secession still lives on. (4.00 / 2)
Representative Cohn has told us that it is a common topic of discussion among the Free State traitors.

[ Parent ]
Rolled over is right. (4.00 / 2)
This is a fantastic LTE:

The election also brought us around a dozen members of the Free State Project. This group began moving to New Hampshire in 2003.

In its quest for a libertarian utopia, gun-control laws would be abolished, schools and social services would be privatized, and most federal aid would be rejected. In 2003, Jason Sorens, founder of the FSP, estimated that by 2010 the group would start influencing policy by running for local and state office.

If you don't share these goals, let your representative know. Do some research before the next election - this is not your father's Republican Party. It is now splintered and radicalized.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com...

And as for Seth's conceit that the voters of Merrimack-06 in large measure knew what they were getting when they voted for him:

There's a popular myth about the N.H. Legislature, says Andrew Smith, associate professor of political science at the University of New Hampshire. The myth is that, with 400 state representatives and 24 state senators, every citizen personally knows his or her local legislator. But that's not necessarily the case.

"The reality is that nobody really knows who their state rep is or who they're voting for," said Smith, director of the UNH Survey Center. "They vote for the Republican or the Democrat, depending on their political leanings."

..."The problem is nobody was really listening to what (the candidates) said they were going to do," Smith said. "The problem for Republicans is you get this legislative overreach, I guess is the best way to describe it."

http://www.wirenh.com/news-mai...

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker


[ Parent ]
yumpin yimeny (0.00 / 0)
When Andy Smith admits that people voted for the current crop of Teabaglifreecans without knowing what they were getting into, that really brings it home.  

[ Parent ]
"don't understand" (0.00 / 0)
Kathy, of all of the people on BH, you've been against Free Staters from Day One.  How many actual freestaters do you know, have you met and sat down with, had coffee with?

By "don't understand", I was being quite serious.  Having spent the last 6+ years explaining what the FSP is to people on and off, I've learned that most people don't actually know what we stand for, they only know what they have heard from poorly written media stories, and the rumor mill.  There are people who think FSPers are all Keene hippies who want nudity and free drugs, or all rightwingers who want to carry guns into school,  or both at once (rightwing hippies?)
Meeting 'real freestaters', more than one or two, is important to counter the rumor mill.

The first FSPer elected (twice) was a Democrat, wasn't he?  There are a few who post here too...
Some even got elected on Tuesday.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
I don't drink coffee (0.00 / 0)
You all may be perfectly pleasant people, but your ideology still is whacked.    





"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


[ Parent ]
Tea, Juice, your choice of liquid refreshments (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps we're only half 'whacked', if you'd get to know some of us.  You might even find like us (gasp).  Ssh, we wont tell anyone.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.

[ Parent ]
What in the world (0.00 / 0)
do our feelings about you personally have to do with our disagreement with what you want to do to our state?  I understand you desperately need to be liked, Seth, but some of us do take into account what the results of a person's ideology might be to us and our communities.  And we see no good coming from what Free Staters have moved here to impose on us.  Live with it.  

[ Parent ]
'moved here to impose on us' (0.00 / 0)
It's phrases like that which reflect the sort of poor understanding I'm saying that meeting some actual freestaters would help to correct.  It's very easy to demonize those whom you don't know.

I don't have a need to be liked (believe me, if I did, I wouldn't hang out on here... or have run for office, where no matter what you do, someone is unhappy with you), my desire is to build bridges, because sometimes we will agree on things and be allies.  Sometimes we absolutely will not, I think we're all clear on that... But even if we won't, humanizing the other side in any conflict is important, and that goal is a worthy one I'll defend.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
down, Seth, down (4.00 / 2)
you're like the leg-humping dog my parents had when I was in high school. "Like me, like me." You may be a likeable fellow. That doesn't have anything to do with it.

I've been following the Free State movement since the group announced their intention to invade and take over my state. I've met individual Free Staters that I liked well enough, some that I've even worked with on issues in the past. I also know a few Republicans I like. But those are individuals. As a whole, I abhor the goals of  the Free Staters, the Teabaggers, and the Republican Party.  


[ Parent ]
Seth--Susan is right Amen (0.00 / 0)

I've also worked with you on certain issues. My best drummer buddy is a Republican. I've ridden motorcycles with John Birchers.

But overwhelmingly you and yours work against everything I believe in.

What is especially disturbing are your links to the hateful likes of Ed Naile and company.


[ Parent ]
Confusing Liberty with insults (4.00 / 1)
Seth,

The movement describes itself as "Liberty loving" relentlessly.

So that makes the rest of us what exactly.Anti--Liberty. Unfortunately that's what people believe about me. Even my friend Matt called me a "statist." I let if go, but it was infuriating to be labelled.

The very premise promotes hubris, and scapegoating.


[ Parent ]
Why did Matt call you a statist? (0.00 / 0)
Knowing Matt, he's not one to name call... What stance did you have that he felt that strongly?

I completely agree with you, like 'socialist', the name calling is often detrimental and serves no purpose, and makes no progress toward discussion.

My new favorite cartoon is this one:
http://mimiandeunice.com/2010/...

BTW, this is one reason the Natural Rights Council is focused on Natural Rights, and not using 'liberty' and 'freedom' and similar words, they tend to be usable by all sides, often with contradictory meanings at times.  Natural Rights was much clearer to define (and defend).


BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
It was casual (0.00 / 0)
That's what struck me. It wasn't said in anger of anything like that--just a matter of fact.

It was at Porc fest by the way.

I let it pass because we're friends.

It's part of your lexicon.  


[ Parent ]
Seth Hi. (4.00 / 1)

From the beginning I was alarmed about the Free State movement coming to NH. I never doubted that some would eventually be elected. With NH's huge house or representatives and 200 dollar pay plan it is possible for anyone or any group to get into our house.

And especially being mostly young people I knew that if they didn't quit they would eventually have enough votes to make a difference.

I opposed the movement because I believed it was misguided and dangerous.

I figured it would work arm in arm with the worst and  people in NH. I figured it would work arm in arm with the perpetrators of the worst corporate abuse.

Now I know I was right.



[ Parent ]
too few (0.00 / 0)
I had this conversation with a Libertarian on another blog a while back.  There are at least 2 major problems with the "take over the government"  by outsiders idea.  One; NH-ites being naturally contrary, don't like people who come here just to take over.  Especially not a bunch of carpetbaggers. Two; it will be very difficult for carpetbaggers moving here to take over and change our way of life to equal the number people who move here from Ma every year (because they like our way of life).  
True, the carpetbaggers are activists which gives them a little advantage but they were swept in in the 2010 mid term by lying about their agenda but that only means that they can't hide behind the R  next to their names on the ballots anymore.  These are not NH Republicans and they won't fool anyone again.  

[ Parent ]
it's not surprising (4.00 / 3)
that the Freebaggers are trying desperately to run away from the early years and reinvent themselves. They were upfront about their intent to take over the state when they began the invasion.

Once we've taken over the state government, we can slash state and local budgets, which make up a sizeable proportion of the tax and regulatory burden we face every day. Furthermore, we can eliminate substantial federal interference by refusing to take highway funds and the strings attached to them. Once we've accomplished these things, we can bargain with the national government over reducing the role of the national government in our state. We can use the threat of secession as leverage to do this.

I'd be coming up with all kinds of diversions, too, if I had to try to defend that.  


No doubt, they feel incredibly burdened. That's usually the case when (0.00 / 0)
a person is basically incompetent and has no talents that anyone wants to access.  
It seems that some people, in addition to having no sense of time and no sense of direction, also have no sense of give and take.  They know how to take and they give, but they don't understand that the taker receives what someone else doesn't want and the giver delivers what someone else wants.  For that transaction to be carried out, a person has to be aware of his own and another person's interests.  
Otherwise, if a taker takes what someone else wants, that's considered theft.  And if he gives what someone else doesn't want, that's an imposition.
I'm sure we all know people who give gifts that don't suit.  They do it out of habit or to imitate what they see (directed by their superficial optics) other people do.  Their empathic sense is apparently lacking.  If someone objects or isn't grateful, they'll complain that they never do anything right.

[ Parent ]
It is just hard (0.00 / 0)
for us to imagine living with what we would see as handicaps like that, I think.  But it does leave them free to be hurtful to others and then act completely innocent.  

[ Parent ]
back to the bad bills (4.00 / 2)
It has been really stunning to see how this is actually playing out now, - with bills like HB 218 - the proposed repeal of the NH Rail Transit Authority, and HB 590 - which aims to reduce the amount of grant money flowing to NH. Both bills were sponsored by a Free Stater.  

Another bill, HB 144 to repeal the PACE program (a program authorizing energy efficiency and clean energy districts), has been amended now. The goal apparently isn't to repeal it now, just to gut it so that the only funding that can be used for it is grant funding. Note the tie in with HB 590. The person who sponsored HB 144 is also a Free Stater, and is the wife of the sponsor of HB 218 and HB 590.

The strong influence on the Legislature of the Free State Project, which has cleverly linked up with other liberty minded groups in NH in order to get the votes to pass bad bills like these, needs to be made visible to the people of New Hampshire, - and hopefully in time to stop these and other really bad bills from being passed.


[ Parent ]
I quibble (0.00 / 0)
with the phrase "liberty minded."  I am just not sure exactly what they mean by liberty, nor to whom it applies, in the real world rather the fantasy they have created as a model for society.  

[ Parent ]
the basis of libertarianism is... (4.00 / 1)
their belief in the absolute right of self-ownership from which their "non-aggression principle" (NAP) is derived.

The NAP is an ethical stance which asserts that the initiation of "aggression" (force or fraud) against people or their legitimate property is inherently illegitimate.

So they believe that all taxes on labor and property are essentially theft.

Many don't believe in the social contract theory but rather "poly-centric law" where private defense agencies are contracted with directly.


[ Parent ]
our job in 2012... (0.00 / 0)
Is to beat them, make them "pay" for their views as expressed in the legislation they have proposed and enacted. We have plenty of "material" to work with.

whp

[ Parent ]

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