9 Comments: I Stand With the Free Keeners

I don't usually post on "local" stories but (4.00 / 4)

make no mistake, this is Coming Soon to a Town Near You.

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by: elwood @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 21:34:50 PM UTC

Good Post -- And Warning For Us. Thanks. (4.00 / 2)

Paranoria and fear are hard to fight.  When our local police go to war with our citizens, that will be an especially sad time.  

But it happens more often than we know.  Wasn't it a great Democrat who said something like "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself?"

Must be really difficult being a young boy or girl coming into this world and watching all this for the first 10 or 15 years.  Wonder how this stuff being thrown at them in their formulative stages will affect them as they grow into adulthood.  

[I'm a former has-been House member and State Senator, but I keep "Rep." on my ID name for easy reference of previous posts.]

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by: Rep. Jim Splaine @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 21:45:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I suspect it's really about budgets, not fear - (4.00 / 3)

the councilors think they can get a free truck.

Mike Blastos could remind them about that wooden horse...

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by: elwood @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 21:47:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The tank is going to have to be housed and curried and (0.00 / 0)

protected from curious citizens.  Concord already has one.

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by: hannah @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 22:14:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I suspect the next council will embed it in concrete (0.00 / 0)

if it cannot be sold off.

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by: elwood @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 22:15:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

it's one of those things (4.00 / 3)

if you hang around the barbershop, eventually you're going to get a haircut. If you have a tank, eventually you'll find (or create) a way  to use it.

Pasadena has one that was acquired by the same grant.

Warren County is another tank grant beneficiary.

It seems to me that the fighters of Gubmint Waste are falling down on the job here. Did I sleep through Charlie Bass's outrage?

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by: susanthe @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 21:58:51 PM UTC

Nobody meaner... (4.00 / 2)

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by: elwood @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 22:03:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The truth is that the public teat has always suckled private (0.00 / 0)

enterprise.  The "small government" chant is merely the mewling of sucklings who don't want to be displaced by the public interest.
The public purse has what every enterprise wants to tap, a guaranteed revenue stream (taxing power).  Doing business with the public corporations relieves enterprise of risk, as long as the holders of the public purse aren't too demanding.

Why was community redevelopment a never-ending process?  Because contractors got reimbursed for labor and material and a guaranteed profit margin of 15%.
What was the excuse for such generosity?  Those rates had to be paid to be "competitive" with the private sector.
What we're no longer sending to Iraq, now has to be used up at home.
It's probably worth remembering that "insurgents" are people who do not agree with the governing authority.

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by: hannah @ Sat Mar 03, 2012 at 22:12:15 PM UTC

Stand with the FK bunch to a point, but (4.00 / 5)

they are flying off into very treacherous territory by mounting a campaign to target Keene City Councilors in ways they have not yet elucidated, including gathering and publishing info about their families, residences, etc.

This is a bridge too far, and is getting uncomfortably close to the sort of thing associated with Operation Rescue and similar terrorist groups.

OK to criticize local volunteer officials and politicians, but leave their families, residences, and workplaces alone.

November 2012
Hope for a return to sanity.

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by: GreyMike @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 04:32:40 AM UTC

thanks GreyMike (4.00 / 2)

gathering and publishing family information  is not acceptable. That leads to decent people refusing to run for office for fear of retribution. That's how you get crazy people running your city.

Also, you've won my undying adoration for referring to Operation Rescue as a terrorist group.  

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by: susanthe @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 19:21:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're welcome (4.00 / 1)

if it walks like a duck...

November 2012
Hope for a return to sanity.

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by: GreyMike @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 21:02:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Other obvious uses (0.00 / 0)

I am a little surprised over the the controversy this TRUCK has caused.  It isn't a tank, not even close.

Keene has been the site of some of the worst flooding in the state year after year. This TRUCK has the ability to traverse flooded roads to rescue civilians who become trapped by the floods.

This is really much ado about nothing IMHO.

It can save people in disasters and it might make it possible for a member of law enforcement to go home safely to their families.

I applaud the city of Keene for making a good decision for the safety of their citizens.  

https://secure.actblue.com/pag...

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by: JeffBallardforSenate @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 04:41:35 AM UTC

"LENCO Armored Vehicles: Protecting our Nations Defenders." (4.00 / 1)

Not even close to a tank, you say.

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by: elwood @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 11:22:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is a tank, I do not see any resemblance. (0.00 / 0)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101...

https://secure.actblue.com/pag...

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by: JeffBallardforSenate @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 02:54:26 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

For Senate? (2.00 / 1)

Really Jeff?

The militarization of our local police--something you support?


No'm Sayn?

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by: BurtCohen @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 15:17:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes for Senate (4.00 / 1)

Burt,

As long as we have had modern Police and Fire Departments they have both been militarized. That is hardly anything new. They are both well known to be para-military organizations.

There are pretty much only 3 jobs in the world which can require you to give your life so someone else might live, the Military, the Police Department and the Fire Department. The need to be militarized so when the time comes you are able to act without fear of self loss.

Unilateral disarmament is not something the police department should practice. Criminals are becoming increasingly well armed. There are several weapons which can be legally purchased which can defeat this truck.

This is a defensive vehicle, not an offensive one.


https://secure.actblue.com/pag...

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by: JeffBallardforSenate @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 02:53:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Here's the thing. (4.00 / 3)

I have no idea whether buying this thing is/was a good idea. I don't live in Keene, I've never heard of this [insert make and model here] thing before, and I haven't been following the controversy.  Those of you who are following the saga of the thing-that-kinda-looks-like-a-Humvee-but-isn't are better qualified than I am to determine whether it has any value in a non-warzone.

But so is Jeff Ballard. He's a combat medic who served in Afghanistan.  I'm not, and I didn't.

He may be right or wrong--again, no informed opinion here--but he's a smart, reasonable person who's knowledgable enough to engage on the merits.  Do that and we all might learn something.

Stock photos and straw men are not making your case.

--
Twitter: @DougLindner

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 05:10:47 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

That qualifies Mr. Ballard to know HOW to (4.00 / 1)

militarize the police. It doesn't qualify him to know WHETHER that's a good idea - or whether his casual claim that the police and fire departments in Keene are already "militarized" is credible.

The drive-by about "stock photos" is bullshit, Lindner. Ballard and others claimed this isn't tanklike or an armored personnel carrier. The photo - from a UL story on this - goves the reader some context.

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by: elwood @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 11:07:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I hate silly back and fourths but.... (0.00 / 0)

I have served in the military with several members of the Keene Fire and Police Departments. I've spent time in the city and other areas of Cheshire County during times of natural disaster. I am by no means an expert on all things Keene, but I have a pretty good idea, based on years of experience working in the public safety arena to know of what I speak.

Research police and fire department chains of command, how their academies work, their uniform policies, what is expected of them in performing their duties, their retirement systems and then compare those to the military.  If you can reasonably point out to me that police and fire departments in this country are ANYTHING but paramilitary organizations I will be very surprised and will be willing to eat my words.

My entire professional life (16 years now) has  been spent working side by side with police and fire departments first in Vermont and more recently in the cities of Manchester, Nashua, Dover and Sommersworth.

Parallel that with almost the same amount of time spent in the military (My first job was in an actual tank battalion) and I would say I have reached the level to be considered a subject matter expert.

By the way a tank is defined as such "army tank - an enclosed armored military vehicle; has a cannon and moves on caterpillar treads"  Do we really need to continue to try and call it a tank? It does meet the definition of an Armored Personnel Carrier, so lets call it that, an APC.

https://secure.actblue.com/pag...

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by: JeffBallardforSenate @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 15:23:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I said he has an informed opinion. (0.00 / 0)

Because you've done your homework on the issue, so do you. my point was simply that people who know what they're talking about should engage on the merits, rather than appealing to visceral reactions, which you did with the picture. I think you can do better, and Jeff is qualified to represent the other side of the debate.

By the way, elwood, we've been talking to each other on BH for four or five years now, and have met in person on several occasions. Feel free to call me Doug.

--
Twitter: @DougLindner

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 18:56:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

REALLY? (3.00 / 2)

REALLY, Jeff? You think this is a good use of US taxpayer dollars? This tank is being funded by a grant from the Dept. of Homeland Security. That means we the people are funding these grants. We don't have anything better to do with taxpayer money than shovel it at defense contractors?

How many millions of hungry and  homeless children are there in this country?  

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by: susanthe @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 20:31:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Is it the best use, no, is it a good use, yes (0.00 / 0)

Susan,

Is it the best use of tax dollars, no, but is it a good and reasonable use? Yes.

Every Line of Duty Death of an Law Enforcement Officer costs hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. Most recently in New Hampshire we have Officer Mike Briggs. (I understand this vehicle would not have prevented his death, it is only an illustration of the costs associated with his death)

I knew Mike and worked along side him in Manchester. His death has cost both the city of Manchester and the State of New Hampshire millions of dollars, and will continue to cost money with the ongoing legal trial of his murderer. We won't even touch on the personal loss of his family and friends.

If this vehicle and prevent a single death, whether civilian or LEO it more than pays for itself.

Again the vehicle will be very useful in times of natural disaster. Contrary to the OP's claims that it would be lousy for such use. (I am not sure how he/she comes to those claims) In my own professional experience as a Paramedic I have used dump trucks to evacuate injured and ill people and was able to do that safely, this vehicle would be much more user friendly for medical professionals.

Also most people who simply become trapped by flood waters are not experiencing any injuries or illness, they are just logistically stuck and need to be moved.

These trucks can also be fitted for use in a CBRN (Chemical, Biological, Radiological, or Nuclear) environment. Time, distance and shielding is all you need to be protected from in a radiological incident. Time is controlled by how long you are exposed, distance is how far from the source you are and shielding is accomplished by this vehicle by way of armor plating and air treatment systems to provide filtered air free on contaminants.

Trucks like this are being used throughout the country, the "SWAT" teams in NH (though they are not called SWAT here) already have older trucks like this and have had them for years and years without any incident or complaints from the public.  

https://secure.actblue.com/pag...

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by: JeffBallardforSenate @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 15:39:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

interesting analogy (0.00 / 0)

except that one reason the death of Officer Briggs is going to cost NH so much money is the death penalty. We're going to spend unknown millions to kill one guy - in a state where the roads, bridges, dams, and communications infrastructure suck with a level of profundity that ought to frighten us all. I don't think the death penalty is a good use of our tax dollars. I don't think this tank is a good use of our tax dollars either.

You hope that it will prevent deaths. I hope that it won't be used to cause deaths. Since 9/11 this country and the police departments have become increasingly militarized. Peaceful protestors around the country are being brutalized and injured by our trigger happy  police forces - and I see this as another tool of repression - and big corrupt valentine to defense contractors.  

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by: susanthe @ Tue Mar 06, 2012 at 00:18:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

But all officers... (0.00 / 0)

Officer Briggs is an accurate reflection of the monetary costs associated with an officer death since any LEO murdered in NH would be a capital crime, so the same costs would be associated with their deaths.

This is a defensive truck, the only foreseeable way which it would be used to cause deaths would be if the driver intentionally drove it into a crowd of people. While nothing is impossible, I would put that in the ranks of very improbable.

I don't disagree at all that peaceful protesters have at times been victimized by law enforcement agencies.  Rachel Maddow made a very good analysis of this when she spoke about pepper spray. Before the police had pepper spray they only had physical force and guns to choose from.  The UC Davis was the perfect example since they would not have used their guns on peacefully assembled students like that.  

I understand your concerns, but in MHO this truck is in a different category than tasers, pepper spray, rubber bullets and such.  

https://secure.actblue.com/pag...

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by: JeffBallardforSenate @ Tue Mar 06, 2012 at 12:50:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Why it's lousy for flood rescue: (0.00 / 0)

It doesn't float. A duck boat or a canoe will get to places it can't reach.

It's very, very heavy (as a result of being built for use in a war zone). That makes it more expensive to run, and it makes it more likely to sink into mud than a lighter vehicle. (Admittedly it will have the horsepower and torque to keep going through a lot of bad terrain, after digging up the driveway and lawn unnecessarily.)

Visibility sucks - the windows are small. If you're looking for people in trouble in the neighborhood you're at a disadvantage.

It's designed for carrying troops through gunfire, not for rescuing people from a disaster. (It's advertised for that purpose too.)

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by: elwood @ Tue Mar 06, 2012 at 00:53:33 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

It doesn't need to float (0.00 / 0)

The truck doesn't need to float.  It can be operated in a few feet of water which is all that is typically needed during floods.

I was in Afghanistan in 2010 during the worst flooding that country has experienced in years. Right next door in Pakistan (20 miles from where I was) nearly 2000 people died and billions in damage happened.

We were driving this trucks big brother and took it through several feet of water which has soft sand and clay under it. Because of the low end torque the truck was always able to keep moving.

In a truck like this with limited visibility you rely on the person standing in the hatch who has amazing visibility since they have unobstructed 360 view.

Typically people in emergency situations / natural disasters which require them to be rescued from are not too concerned with their lawns or driveways.

https://secure.actblue.com/pag...

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by: JeffBallardforSenate @ Tue Mar 06, 2012 at 12:56:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thanks for your persistent, patient, informed, articulate comments on this. n/t (4.00 / 1)

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by: The Money Magician @ Tue Mar 06, 2012 at 13:10:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

WHAT THE ????????????????????????? (4.00 / 3)

First thought is the salesman that sold this turkey could sell ice to the north pole !

2nd thought     Anybody think the Keene PD could show where this white elephant would have saved a life during the last 30 years of the Keene pd????

3rd    Be sure to take some school children for a ride in this turkey after you cut the school budget

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by: tchair @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 17:33:11 PM UTC

Yes, it's not a tank. (0.00 / 0)

It has no weaponry.  It's not even an armored personnel carrier - at least, as is normally meant by the term.  For me, the over-stating of what this is makes it hard to think clearly about whether I'd support one in our town.  It certainly is sold to be intimidating, and I've no doubt that some police forces would use it that way.  But crazy stuff happens, anywhere and everywhere - even at American high schools, and Swedish island summer camps - where a bulletproof vehicle that can safely get in close might save lives. (Literalists note: I'm suggesting that it's a duck boat, or that we need one at every high school.)

Here's a different picture of a similar vehicle that's tricked out by a police force with a different mindset.

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by: The Money Magician @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 18:09:00 PM UTC

perhaps (0.00 / 0)

 this one was tricked out by the police dept. to make it look benign. Whitewash for the general populace, and a hearty STFU to the critics.

It's difficult to imagine that this police dept. couldn't have found someplace else to hang their stockings.

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by: susanthe @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 19:19:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sorry, I missed mind-reading class that day. n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: The Money Magician @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 19:52:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

and it's (0.00 / 0)

too much work to imagine a scenario other than the rosy one you're trying to portray?

So, when this shows up at a gathering of nonviolent, unarmed protestors, you'll be cheering at how well they're being protected?

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by: susanthe @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 20:32:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I never claimed that it couldn't or won't be abused. (0.00 / 0)

I thought I was pretty clear that I thought it might be by some forces.  That's the problem with giving police guns and other means of asserting force - they can abuse them.  And I didn't claim to know that the police force with the white one in the picture is benign - only that they're not trying to intimidate with it.

Most good use of a vehicle like this will go totally unremarked, so I don't know how to balance this.  In looking further, I realize that we already have one in Manchester.  It's apparently often out for P.R., like at PeopleFest and at a "touch a truck" event at the mall.  Read that as you will - seducing little boys to the dark side, whatever.  

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by: The Money Magician @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 23:03:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I read it as (4.00 / 1)

wasteful shoveling of taxpayer dollars to defense contractors. I read it as the ongoing militarization of police departments, in order to A) shovel taxpayer dollars to defense contractors/justify our outrageous and increasing defense spending and B) normalizing this sort of weaponry, so that when it is turned on unarmed protestors it won't be such an outrage. We've seen a little bit of the justification process - it's in this thread.

Kinda like the sound cannon the Boston Police Dept. brought along when they broke up the Occupy encampment. Unarmed peaceful protestors necessitated the same kind of weaponry used on Somali pirates. I can't fathom, or justify it - no matter  how hard I try. I do know this though - like any big dollar weaponry item handed over to overgrown boys, once they have it, they'll find a way to use it.  

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by: susanthe @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 23:48:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, you're not suggesting anything at all. (0.00 / 0)

You're just saying "The world can be a dangerous place," as though the people who have thought this through don't appreciate that. Then you're bringing up situations where this armored personnel carrier - that's what the manufacturer says it is - wouldn't be of any use.

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by: elwood @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 19:25:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"Its not even an armoured" (0.00 / 0)

Learn what you post about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

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by: tchair @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 20:45:29 PM UTC

Yeah, I stand corrected. n/t (4.00 / 1)

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by: The Money Magician @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 22:48:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Because we have a hovercraft! (4.00 / 1)

"... the milkman left me a note yesterday: Get out of this town by noon, you're coming on way too soon, and besides that we never liked you any way." -- John Prine  

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by: The Grand Panjandrum @ Sun Mar 04, 2012 at 20:53:37 PM UTC

understandable paranoid response (0.00 / 0)

I'm surprised that no one has stepped back a bit, and considered the possibility that this vehicle may be a paranoid but also in a strange way an understandable response to Free Keener confrontations of the police over the past several years, and to the overall escalation of gun fascination in Keene and the entire state, as reflected by bills proposed and passed by Free Staters and others.   This tank is basically just a bigger gun.  

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by: victoriap @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 03:43:52 AM UTC

No, it's not a bigger gun - it's a bigger shield. Big difference. n/t (4.00 / 1)

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by: The Money Magician @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 18:44:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I suggest everyone on BH (4.00 / 1)

watch the documentary "The Miami Model". Illustrating the city and police response to the protests at the Free Trade Area of the Americas in Miami in 2003, it shows the very thing that happens when police are given access to these kinds of weapons.

I know everyone likes to think that every police officer is Officer Friendly, but that is simply not true. Police brutality is real; just ask Scott Olsen when he was almost killed by a police fired projectile at Occupy Oakland or the Gap executive who was brutally raped by the NYC police officer who was supposed to help her get home safely.

Sadly, there is not an insignificant number of police who entered the profession precisely for the power and to get paid for carrying a gun.

Unfortunately, many people, when given an order, no matter how uncalled for or immoral it may be, do not have the courage to not follow an unjust order. And finally, we should never underestimate the "madness of crowds". One random police officer may not be a bad actor, but in the company of other bad actors, he can be easily overwhelmed. Providing more weaponry and ways to abuse only makes this easier. Susanthe is absolutely right: hang around the barbershop long enough, you're going to get a haircut.

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

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by: Granite Gnome @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 04:08:44 AM UTC

Boys and their toys. (0.00 / 0)

http://gizmodo.com/5890507/pol...

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by: hannah @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 21:45:53 PM UTC

In other Bearcat-related news (0.00 / 0)

Police Drone Crashes into Police

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by: Vis Unita Fortior @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 at 23:23:19 PM UTC

All (4.00 / 1)

over the place.

We have the skills, the tools, the knowledge and the means to solve all our problems.  We just need the political will.  

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by: Lucy Edwards @ Wed Mar 07, 2012 at 12:20:41 PM UTC