Expanded Gambling: The Poll

Lame vote as (0.00 / 0)

"unsure".

On the one side, I agree with some on this site who believe people like to gamble, so it should be legal. People like to play poker, bet on horses (or football, whatever) and play slot machines, etc. It has a social cost, but so do other things that have been legal for awhile, like liquor and cigarettes.

On the other side, the pictures I've seen on the news of those video slot machine rooms look to me like one of Dante's circles of hell. Dark rooms with those cold machines shining their hyper colors and sounds, built to make money by titillating human greed. Well, it's gross. But that's my opinion.

I would not  want one of those places near where I live. I believe they bring a certain type of side business with them, including prostitution (which there are arguments for legalizing as well). Las Vegas and Atlantic City are two places I would not choose to be. I find those other places that are heavily advertised, like Mohegan Sun, equally repulsive.

But I don't smoke and rarely drink alcohol. And it doesn't bother me to the point that I would outlaw either.

We have to decide what we think is best for the state, not what lobbyists for the gaming industry tell us, nor the fantasy that gambling will be a "painless" way to increase state revenue. Still, little old ladies (and men) go to Atlantic City all the time, and they're probably not doing much but having some fun with slots and going home.

But will Salem, NH be a destination site like that? Will video slots at the racetrack attract bus loads of blue-hairs like the Jersey Shore or Elvis impersonators and has-been stars people still want to see, like Las Vegas?

In the other thread, Ray Buckley notes that the Las Vegas casino workers are unionized, which is great. But I'd rather see the creation of green industries. I would wager (heh, heh) that the casino workers on the whole make less (and have less benefits) than the much maligned auto workers in Detroit.

My SO always puts it in terms of "Potterville" or Bedford Falls. That's a choice we have to make.

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by: Jennifer Daler @ Sat Jan 10, 2009 at 19:53:34 PM CST

while i agree with the general points here, I wonder why you have awarded the franchise to Millenium and the Rock. (4.00 / 3)

What have they done to earn it other than spend alot of money in Concord?

"But, in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." Si se puede. Yes we can.  

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by: Paul Twomey @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 09:46:49 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Good point! (0.00 / 0)

There is a significant difference between a "racino" - a dog or horse track with slot machines - and a full fledged destination casino.  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 11:14:19 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Nobody is seriously proposing a full fledged casino for NH (0.00 / 0)

And by "nobody" I mean people who are prepared to spend upwards of $1 billion to make it happen. To put the cost of a big casino in perspective the MGM addition at Foxwoods, with 800 hotel rooms, was $700 million.

This won't fly here. We don't have the population density, and there is already established and successful competition in CT. What has been proposed for NH are large slots parlors. Since the racetracks are in charge of the bills and pushing to locate the slots parlors at their venues, we call them racinos. If you are thinking "world-class entertainment experience at our doorstep", think again.

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by: Michael Marsh @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 05:31:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

IIRC (4.00 / 1)

There has been discussion by some of the hotels in the north country about expanded legalized gambling.  

When Foxwood first opened, it was pretty much a glorified bingo hall in the middle of nowhere.

But Mr. Twomey is correct, there should be some process to determine not only if legalized gambling should be expanded, but also how it should happen, as opposed to automatically assuming it will be at Rockingham.

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 08:18:46 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Can't compare Foxwoods with the North country. (0.00 / 0)

Foxwoods was a bingo hall when it opened in the mid-80's. It didn't become a casino until a Malaysian gambling hall operator put up the money to build the casino in the early 1990's.

For a casino to be successful, particularly a convenience casino, you need to have a proximate population to draw from. If you look at the grand hotels, they do not have this population. For example, less than 250,000 people live within 50 miles of Bretton Woods, compared to over 3,000,000 who live that close to Foxwoods. Since Foxwoods is a destination casino, it draws folks from up to 100 miles away. There are 13 million of them.

As for where the casinos should go, should we decide in our wisdom to bring 'em in, the best approach is to auction off a ten year license, starting at a price of $50,000 per machine. This represents less than 1 years gross profit for the casino, if you can believe Millennium's estimates.

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by: Michael Marsh @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 09:29:36 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Distraction (4.00 / 2)

I think proposing gambling as a revenue source is really more of a distraction. We really need some sort of fair method of raising taxes, perhaps a graduated income tax, with supplemental methods, such as meals taxes, and I think gambling revenues could be part of this supplemental source. But the idea of proposing gambling first seems like we are fooling ourselves, or delaying the need to implement a real, sustainable, and equitable means of generating revenue for expanded and improved state programs and infrastructure.

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by: FrankLloydMike @ Sat Jan 10, 2009 at 20:39:40 PM CST

I agree. (4.00 / 3)

While I don't know yet if I support it or not, one thing is clear: the whole discussion shows just how dysfunctional and traumatized the state has become over discussing revenue.

Thanks, Mel 'n Willy!

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by: Dean Barker @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 08:40:06 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Not voting (0.00 / 0)

In deference to my flatlander status.

But I suggest a followup question.

Do you support expanded gambling if the casino is placed next to your child's school or your mother's house?

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by: JimC @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 07:48:19 AM CST

No gambling in New Hampshire. (4.00 / 1)

Because it's not legal in most states, it would turn our state into a destination for gambling and everything that follows the casino industry.  Raise your hand if you want to live in Reno.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 08:25:31 AM CST

nimby (0.00 / 0)

raise your hand if you've ever enjoyed a visit to a casino.  wnba counts, so my hand goes up.

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by: kite @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 09:45:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

300,000 People Disagree With You (0.00 / 0)

it would turn our state into a destination for gambling and everything that follows the casino industry.

Like this.

If we can get the people to the casinos from out of state, gambling is a vastly superior option to an Income Tax.

P.S -- 300,000 people disagree with your cynical assessment of the beautiful Reno/Lake Tahoe area.

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by: Andrew Sylvia @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 09:58:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

From 2007. (0.00 / 0)

If Sheldon Adelman is representative, the industry hasn't done very well lately.

A truly dispassionate look at this issue would include figuring out whether the revenue is cyclical or counter-cyclical.

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by: elwood @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 10:48:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You're taking it out of context. (0.00 / 0)

Someone from another state might have said something similar about New Hampshire if the argument were about whether or not to adopt a similar education funding structure.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 16:24:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And If They Did Say That About New Hampshire, How Would You Have Taken That? (0.00 / 0)

I once had a job selling kitchen utensils.

When they were training us they told us never to demean the customers' current set of kitchen utensils, even though we thought our set was better.

Why? Well, the trainer used this comparison: "If you call your own car a piece of junk, you probably feel alot different than if somebody else calls your car a piece of junk."

Doug, you could have made your point without "calling Reno's car a piece of junk" so to speak for no apparent reason. It was very callous, so that's why I chimed in.

The fact that gambling isn't legal in most states is a fallacious argument on its own. Just because something is popular or unpopular doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong, but that wasn't nearly as bad as randomly attacking someplace for no apparently necessary reason.  

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by: Andrew Sylvia @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 18:26:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Now you're going off on a tangent. (0.00 / 0)

Meanwhile, the fact that it's not legal in other states matters.  If it were legal in the rest of the country, having it here wouldn't make us a destination for it.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 18:38:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yep, Just A Tangent. That's The Beauty Of Blogs (0.00 / 0)

It absolutely matters, but wasn't talking to you on the last paragraph there, just in general.  

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by: Andrew Sylvia @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 20:28:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A destination from where? (0.00 / 0)

Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun in Connecticut is as convenient to the Boston area as anywhere in NH, and more convenient to the New York area. There's a geographical range where Casino de Montreal becomes more convenient, which I imagine includes most of Vermont (also served by upstate NY Indian casinos). If you consider population, as far as the region goes, having a casino would not be a very big deal.

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 21:30:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Casinos are vacation destinations. (0.00 / 0)

Plenty of New Englanders go to Las Vegas, even though Mohegan/Foxwoods and Atlantic City are much closer.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 23:18:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So, the argument is (4.00 / 1)

let's keep out foreign tourists?

You can come to New Hampshire and ski, see a moose, check out where the Russo-Japanese war ended, gamble, go shooting, visit a maple sugar shack, and buy tax-free goods and cheap liquor.

Though, I don't think we'd ever compare to Vegas, with or without a casino.

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Sun Jan 11, 2009 at 23:46:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

De-Tangentializing (0.00 / 0)

If you want to look at it from the Republican point of view, even if all 50 states did legalize it, we could still get people to come here if we provided the best product (best odds, best hotels, best shows, best perks, etc.)

The gambling industry is still a long way from being that prevalent, but we can either have it out in the open or have it underground because it isn't going to go away.  

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by: Andrew Sylvia @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 06:28:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

How did "foreign" get into this? (0.00 / 0)

It's not about keeping out tourists.  It's about not being a destination for gambling and everything that follows it.  Read the sub-thread that was part of.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 10:39:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Foreign as in (0.00 / 0)

out of state. Not from around here.

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:47:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My point is that the presence of casinos has an effect on the community. (0.00 / 0)

It's not as simple as giving more options to people who buy a powerball ticket at the gas station.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 14:57:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That's Fine, But (0.00 / 0)

There are a few questions that need to be asked

#1. Will that effect, if it is negative, which is apparently likely, be greater than the benefit?

#2. What will the revenue or spending alternative be if we don't go through with it?

#3. Will it happen anyway out of sight?

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by: Andrew Sylvia @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 17:42:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

What Follows Tourism (0.00 / 0)

being a destination for gambling and everything that follows it.

everything that follows gambling...like tourist dollars.  

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by: Andrew Sylvia @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 14:33:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Gambling is pretty much legal everywhere (4.00 / 1)

there are "commercial casinos" in 12 states, indian casinos in 28 states, lotteries in 41 states (inc. NH), racetracks in 43 states (inc. NH), "racinos" in 12 states, charitable gaming in 46 (inc. NH). There are only 2 states that have no gambling- Utah (the Mormons, I guess) and Hawaii (who knows why- the surfing?).

Even if we are looking at just casinos/racinos, our neighbors QB, CT, ME, RI, and NY have these already, and MA will get them in the next year or 2, as soon as the appropriate payout and payoff details can be worked out (this is a joke, of course).

We are not talking about desination casinos in NH. We are talking about convenience casinos, where NH and MA women of a certain age can go and spend a few hours safely losing part of their social security checks.  

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by: Michael Marsh @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 16:35:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, (0.00 / 0)

why not?

We are not talking about desination casinos in NH. We are talking about convenience casinos, where NH and MA women of a certain age can go and spend a few hours safely losing part of their social security checks.

Simply failure of imagination?

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 16:50:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Simply failure of imagination? (0.00 / 0)

No, simply a statement of fact.  Simply imagining something does not make it happen. You need the financing and the people who are prepared to take a risk to make it happen. No one is stepping up to propose a destination casino for NH with the restaurants, convention centers, and entertainment venues because it doesn't make economic sense to do so. Pedople with deep pockets don't spend money on losing propositions.

There is a market for only so many destination casinos. In the northeast we have them in CT and NJ already. Where would the "playahs" who are going to lose money in sufficient numbers to make this grand destination casino work going to come from? Why would they come to NH and not CT?

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by: Michael Marsh @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 at 06:30:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The legislature could mandate (0.00 / 0)

a private casino have all those things before a license is approved, if it wanted to.

I don't disagree that as a business consideration, it doesn't make sense to build a grand casino in New Hampshire in this economic climate. But, as it stands, the state can impose whatever requirements on would-be casino operators that it wants to.

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Wed Jan 14, 2009 at 12:34:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"We are not talking about desination casinos in NH" (4.00 / 2)

Really?  Have all the proponents of expanded gambling agreed to include provisions to that end in the law?

Because if not, what you're saying is an just an assumption, an assumption based on a proposals that would open a can of worms not easily closed.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 20:16:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ever been (0.00 / 0)

to Reno or the Nevada side of Lake Tahoe, Andrew?

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by: susanthe @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 16:16:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Raise Your Hand... (0.00 / 0)

if you want to live in Connecticut or Wisconsin

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by: robsprague @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 12:10:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Traveling (4.00 / 1)

Although I haven't been to Wisconisn, the area of Connecticut around Foxwood is beautiful, and Mohegan is right on the Thames River in a very attractive location.  Both are about 20-25 minutes from Mystic and other waterfront spots on the Long Island/Fischer Island Sounds, very popular area.  Being a NH native, I probably wouldn't move, but Mystic is pretty nice.  In any event, have you been to either Foxwood or Mohegan? Might be worth a trip, even if you don't gamble - they have some pretty good concerts! My husband and I have vacationed in Mystic, and found a lot to do in the area, so if you like the water, you can stay at one of the nice inns there, and then scoot up to Foxwood or Mohegan. There are parts of the state I wouldn't like, such as Bridgeport, but I do like the south east part of the state. There also are some terrific restaurants; there is one place called the Skipper's Dock in Stonington which is on the water, has a hot lobster roll to die for!  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 13:01:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Stonington Harbor Inn ! (0.00 / 0)

Yes it is gorgeous there...and the lobster is as you say.

I have often traveled up and down I-395, but never stopped at the Casinos. They are there to allow out of staters to help donate $250,000 million a year from the video slots directly to the State of Connecticut. If there were any (?) recognized tribes left in New Hampshire they could do the same on their sovereign lands.

some numbers from 2006

http://www.umassd.edu/cfpa/doc...
February 5, 2007/5:00am
CONTACT: Dr. Clyde W. Barrow
(508) 999-9265
BAY STATERS FLOCK TO FOXWOODS AND MOHEGAN SUN

By gender, age, income and education, residents make more than 6.9 million visits to Connecticut casinos Massachusetts residents made 6.9 million separate trips to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun during the past 12 months, according to a behavioral survey released today by the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth Center for Policy Analysis. The survey, part three of a seven-part study determining New England residents' attitudes toward casinos and slot parlors, found that Bay Staters, who comprise approximately 36% and 21% of Foxwoods and Mohegan
Sun patrons, respectively, made about 6.9 million trips to the southeastern Connecticut casinos during the
past twelve months. Approximately 83% of Massachusetts residents visiting Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun are 30 years and older. Last week, the CFPA released a poll of 1,041 Massachusetts residents showing that 57% of Bay Staters support the authorization of a resort casino in the commonwealth, while 30% are opposed and 14% are
undecided. Tomorrow, the CFPA will release a survey of Massachusetts residents and related demographics
regarding their patronage of Lincoln Park and Newport Grand, Rhode Island's two video slot parlors. The CFPA, which neither supports nor opposes gambling, studies gambling because of the increasingly significant public policy implications of gambling's fiscal, economic and social impacts throughout New England. Forty-eight states and the District of Columbia allow some form of gambling, with many states relying on gambling revenues as an essential part of the state budget. Next week, the CFPA will release the fifth part of its seven-part behavioral survey examining the potential of gambling addiction, entitled "Is Gambling a Social Problem in New England?"
Overall, one-in-four Massachusetts residents surveyed --- approximately 25% --- reported visiting either Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun in the past 12 months, with men comprising 51% of the casinos' visitors, and women accounting for 49% of the visitors.

more at link

"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 13:32:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The recession is hitting the casinos. (4.00 / 1)

From October, 2008 http://www.metrowestdailynews....

Mashantucket, Conn. - The Mashantucket Pequots announced Tuesday they are cutting the work force at Foxwoods Resort Casino and MGM Grand by approximately 700 people over the next few weeks.

And from January 12, 2009  http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?...

Mohegan - Faced with another year of the recession that has taken an unprecedented toll on the gaming industry, Mohegan Sun officials announced a series of cost-cutting measures Sunday after unveiling them at a quarterly meeting of the Mohegan Tribe's membership.

or January 13, 2009 - http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?...

Mohegan - Apart from cost-cutting at its flagship, Mohegan Sun, the Mohegan Tribe will reduce its tribal-government operation through voluntary buyouts and, if necessary, layoffs, as well as rolling back salary increases and halting construction of an $80 million community center that would house administrative offices.

"Plus Ça Change, Plus C'est La Même Chose"

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by: NHFlatlander @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 10:03:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

And on the other side of the world (4.00 / 1)

Moody's, a credit-rating agency, has a negative outlook on the entire Asian casino industry, and Macau in particular. Casino operators' share prices have collapsed. SJM, which went public in July after repeatedly cutting its offering price to entice a sceptical market, has seen its valuation cut in half. In the past year Wynn's share price has fallen by two-thirds, and those of Galaxy Entertainment, MGM Mirage and Sands by around 90%.

Sands' boss, Sheldon Adelson, has seen the value of his holdings fall by $34 billion. On November 10th Sands said that a long-planned expansion on Macau was being postponed indefinitely to preserve capital, having given warning on November 6th that it might default on its debt. Efforts are being made to raise capital, despite the forbidding environment. And in its struggles, Sands is hardly alone. Capital projects are being cut by every operator and, after years of desperately searching for labour, lay-offs have begun.

From The Economist

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 13:18:34 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I used to live in Groton (4.00 / 2)

I thought it was a cool place as a little kid, because I'm interested in submarines, the American revolution, and the history of whaling and other fisheries (maybe I'm interested in these things after living there). But, my family moved to New Hampshire when Connecticut adopted a "temporary" income tax (although, we moved for other job-related reasons).

New Hampshire's probably the only place in the United States I'd be comfortable living for any serious amount of time, but if you want to live by the ocean, Connecticut is way more convenient.

Wisconsin doesn't seem like a terrible place either. They have a fascinating history and a lot in common with New Hampshire, I think. Plus, as a Hemingway fan, I could be convinced that the great lakes region might be The Last Good Country. Also, they have those silly cheese hats that the Green Bay Packers fans wear.

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Mon Jan 12, 2009 at 21:10:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

..... surrounding businesses... (4.00 / 2)

When I was judging a dog show last Summer in S/Eastern Connecticut, I stayed at a motel the night before. Arriving about eight in the evening, I checked in, then went to dinner at a nice local pub-style restaurant next door. It wasn't part of a "plastic chain". I ordered a Jack Daniels and a sandwich at the bar. The restaurant - a nice looking place - was comfortable and had good food.

It was Saturday night. The place was relatively empty!! for a Saturday night - oh there were a few patrons, a couple here and a party there.

Talking with the owner, who tended the bar, I asked him the usual questions, if gambling was a problem - did it create more crime, etc. etc. He replied that crime was not really all that much greater; however, from his perspective and fellow business owners, the two, large casinos drew much of the local base not only for gambling but to the shows and entertainment. He offered that, even if the locals only went to a show or concert and had dinner at the casino and did not gamble, local businesses like his - well established - suffered, as there was only so much in a paycheck to go around and that the jobs created were low end service jobs..... I ordered a second whiskey.....

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by: Jay Phinizy @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 at 17:57:14 PM CST