Open Thread: No Gimmicks Edition

I hope (4.00 / 3)

this is just a vicious rumor. Taxing health benefits to pay for the uninsured is unfair and stupid. Premiums are too high as it is. And to pay a tax on them on top of it?

Why can't we do what the Germans do and take a percentage off the top, equally from employees and employers? Of course costs need to be controlled better. That can be done in a variety of ways, one being incentives for health not for illness, and procedures as it is now.

---

by: Jennifer Daler @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 07:30:51 AM CDT

U.S. Healthcare Makes Me Sick (4.00 / 2)

www.KusterforCongress.com

---

by: JonnyBBad @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 07:36:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Change Congress vs. Ben Nelson: (4.00 / 1)

From an e-mail. There are lots of hotlinks provided as source, but I'm not spending the next hour tying them in.

http://change-congress.org/

This week, Change Congress scored a major victory against U.S. Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) after he fell victim to what I call "Good Souls Corruption" -- good people trapped in a broken campaign-finance system they refuse to fix.
Ben Nelson probably hates us right now -- or at least me. But that's OK, it was worth it. Here's what happened.
-snip

May 2: Sen. Nelson vowed to oppose President Obama's health care "public option" -- calling it a "deal breaker." (This public option would compete with private insurers in the marketplace.)

May 7: Public Campaign released a report showing Nelson received over $2 million from health and insurance interests who oppose the public option. Meanwhile, 71% of rural voters support it. A clear conflict.

May 28: Change Congress announced $10,000 in online ads and 3,000 direct-mail pieces to Democratic donors in Nebraska, calling out Nelson's special-interest funding. Our campaign was instantly covered in the AP, Omaha World-Herald, Lincoln Journal Star, Roll Call, The Hill, Forbes, and many other places.

Also May 28: Ben Nelson's spokesperson freaked out, issuing a 9-paragraph rant. In it, he denied the existence of an Obama public option and said Nelson never opposed the public option! (See May 2.)

May 29: More media coverage -- including Mother Jones (Lessig's Change Congress Accuses Democratic Senator of Corruption) and NebraskaStatePaper.com (Nelson Is Catching Hell On the Internet...)

May 31: Ben Nelson announces in the Lincoln Journal Star, "I have not closed my mind to any option." Except, "he's opposed to opening the door to choice between a government and a private plan." In other words, he's open to everything except the public option.

June 3: Huffington Post reported Ben Nelson is "open" to the public option "after a week of apparently contradictory remarks at home in Nebraska."  

Also June 3: After reading the Huffington Post's story, Ben Nelson personally called the Huffington Post's Ryan Grim to say, "I've always been open to any idea that floated out there, all except one." Which one? Single-payer...which nobody in this debate has been proposing.

June 7: Nelson personally called Nebraska Change Congress supporter Bud Pettigrew. According to the Huffington Post, Nelson told Bud "not to assume that he will oppose such a proposal in a final reform package" and that "he could support cloture [oppose a filibuster] on a public plan for insurance coverage even if he opposed the bill itself." Nelson's spokesperson confirmed, "It is true that Sen. Nelson may vote for a public option."

Also June 7: Huffington Post quoted Bud saying Change Congress is "kicking him in the ass right now and he is feeling it" and quoted Change Congress CEO Adam Green saying, "If Senator Nelson supports cloture on the public option, that is welcome news -- and concrete proof that when we call out politicians for siding with their special-interest donors it forces them to be more responsive to their constituents."

www.KusterforCongress.com  

---

by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 14:41:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

taxing benefits (0.00 / 0)

It's not a tax on premiums.  It's a tax on benefits. Benefits are the part of health care that many employers give to employees -- not the part that employees pay for themselves.

State employees, for instance, don't pay premiums for a large portion of their health care benefit and they don't pay taxes on it either.

It's not unusual to pay taxes on other benefits from employers - housing, cars and, in some cases, per diems. Even in New Hampshire where all taxes are considered anathema, I'm not sure it is so unreasonable for those who get much of their health care as an employee benefit to pay taxes on that portion.

---

by: calvin @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 10:44:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

First of all, (4.00 / 4)

employers don't "give" anything to employees. Employees earn it.

Second of all, this is ironic because the whole concept of "benefits' started in the 1930s as a way to keep union members satisfied with stagnant wages. Employers began offering health coverage (at first it was only hospitalization)as a trade off against higher wages. Back then, it suited the employers.

Now with the out of control costs brought to you by the system itself, it's not so much fun for employers to pay for private insurance. No other industrialized country has such a system.

Money Driven Medicine, by Maggie Mahar has a great analysis of how we got here.

If you put cars, restaurants and other things in the same category as health care, then you and I are working with different paradigms. I see access to good health care as a human right. Cars and houses, while necessary, fall into the "consumer goods" category as far as I'm concerned. There is more leeway and choice there. If you need chemo or surgery or durable medical equipment or you will die, there is no choice involved. Totally different, IMHO

---

by: Jennifer Daler @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 11:07:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're right, but (0.00 / 0)

Since the founding of this country, we have not had free healthcare -- it has always been a commercial product like cars and houses. This is part of the battle we have to fight, because economic arguments will be the fulcrum of resistance to change.

---

by: JimC @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 11:13:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'd have to research that. (4.00 / 1)

IIRC, Mahar doesn't go that far back in history.

In Europe, where most of the settlers came from, health care was provided by the church for a long time. It is evident in that in many languages the word for nurse has the word "sister" in it, referring to nuns. In Wuerzburg Germany, a famous winery is called Julius Spittal, Spittal being related to the word hospital. The monks cared for the sick, made wine (a bit of wine never hurt) and probably took a tipple or two themselves.

Native American cultures all had healers--they're where we got the idea for aspirin, digitalis, among other things. It was a specialty and healers were very well respected. Whether or with what they were paid, IDK.

---

by: Jennifer Daler @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 11:23:55 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fair enough (4.00 / 1)

Since the founding of the AMA, then. :-!

---

by: JimC @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 11:25:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, until women were given access to the vote, they had (0.00 / 0)

always been excluded.  Until slavery was outlawed and the draft was ended, there had always been involuntary servitude.

Preventing illness, injury and disease from terminating a procuctive life prematurely is not a BENEFIT.  It's a necessity if a society is going to thrive.
Every individual is going to die.  To expire sooner rather than later is not a particular detriment to the individual.  It is, however, a significant detriment to the community that's invested in his/her birthing and rearing and education and then gets nothing out of its investment.  Which means that keeping the population healthy and productive is much more critical to society than it is to the individual and explains why it's a social issue.
It is, of course, not unprecedented that societies contribute to their own demise out of short-sighted considerations.  In the Americas, both the Maya and the Incas have provided an example.  There's no guarantee that a culture will survive, but it's almost certain that it will collapse, if it doesn't transmit its values to the next generation--a near impossibility if the majority of adults die off prematurely.

---

by: hannah @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 12:52:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, but (0.00 / 0)

Look what happened.

[snark]

---

by: JimC @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 13:54:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

health care (0.00 / 0)

I never said anything about putting health care in the same category as owning a car or eating in a restaurant.

Your first statement was an objection to paying taxes on a tax-free benefit that is not available to the 50 million people who have no health insurance.  

That's the attitude that has kept this country from insuring that everyone has health care. The biggest single barrier to enacting health care reform in this country is the unwillingness of people who have health care to even consider any approach that might possibly threaten their own coverage. That was the message from Harry and Louise.  It worked then, and it is still working now.

---

by: calvin @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 13:14:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You don't get it. (4.00 / 1)

My husband earns less money than he otherwise would because his employer provides him with health insurance coverage. To tax that "benefit" is further screwing us and the rest of the barely middle class over, especially because the plan, although good by US standards is very expensive for what it provides.

I am not against paying something, such as in the German model, especially if, as in most European countries, there are no "co-payments".

Also, don't ascribe motives, as though being against this plan means I do not want to see coverage for the uninsured. That is twisted logic, at best. And dishonest. This taxing plan is not the only way to provide the uninsured coverage.

The idea of taxing people on employer provided health insurance was an idea touted by John McCain in the last election. He lost.

---

by: Jennifer Daler @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 13:32:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

sharing the cost of health care (0.00 / 0)

Actually, it's Obama's plan now.

You are in an unusual situation. The fact is that state employees and most employees who receive health care as a benefit also get the advantage of health care bought at bargain rates. In other words, if they got the salary instead and paid for comparable health care on their own, they would be paying more for the same coverage.

Of course, if there was a government-funded health care plan available, you might be able to buy health care coverage for less.  That is precisely why the insurance companies will fight tooth and nail against having the public option.

It's disappointing but probably necessary for Obama to give up on single payer and propose private insurance with a public option. The problem now is how to fund that public option. The Senate is unwilling to consider taxing the wealthy which was the proposal that both Obama and Clinton campaigned on.

I like having the tax-free portion of health care state employees get - especially since I was unemployed and paying for private insurance out-of-pocket not too long ago. On the other hand, if giving it up is what it takes for the Senate to adopt health care reform with a public option, I'll support it.

So what do you propose as a way to fund a public option keeping in mind that there isn't a lot of support for a public option in the Senate?

---

by: calvin @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 14:35:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Where did you get this idea? (0.00 / 0)

it is Obama's plan now.

As of June 7, Bloomberg was reporting:

President Barack Obama wants Congress to consider taxing the wealthy instead of workers to pay for a health-care overhaul, as House Democrats discuss a plan to require health insurance for most Americans.

The Obama administration stepped up efforts to influence health-care legislation today as advisers David Axelrod and Austan Goolsbee appeared on television talk shows to discuss the issue.

The president is trying to avoid broad-based levies such as a Senate proposal to tax some employer-provided health benefits Axelrod said. Instead he is urging lawmakers to reconsider limiting all tax deductions for Americans in the highest tax brackets.

You are misinformed, it seems. Also, you do not know my situation. Don't assume things, please. And if paying what used to be a reasonable starting wage for health care is a "bargain" to you, I'd hate to think what "high priced." would be.

---

by: Jennifer Daler @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 17:21:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's foollish. (0.00 / 0)

It's not unusual to pay taxes on other benefits from employers - housing, cars and, in some cases, per diems.

Those are all very unusual benefits, often offered precisely to avoid taxation and then clamped down upon by the IRS.

Health care is in an entirely different category - it is considered absolutely standard, and jobs that don't offer it are considered exploitative.

When McCain's economic advisers told him "But economists agree, and it brings in a lot of money!" Obama knew that it was a TROOLY STOOPID idea that would help end McCain's candidacy.

I hope the President hasn't gone dumb on us.

---

by: elwood @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 19:59:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nostramurdoch (0.00 / 0)

Who do you think said this yesterday?

"I can see the day, maybe 20 years away, where you don't actually have paper and ink and printing presses. I think it will take a long time and I think it's a generational thing that is happening. But there's no doubt that younger people are not picking up the traditional newspapers."

Jeff Jarvis? No. Jay Rosen? No. Alan Rusbridger? No.

It was none other than Rupert Murdoch, the man who also said in a lecture at the end of last year: "Unlike the doom and gloomers, I believe that newspapers will reach new heights in the 21st century."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medi...

---

by: JimC @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 08:50:04 AM CDT

Plagiarism? (4.00 / 1)

Literally the last thing I expected from Sarah Palin.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich's camp said Monday allegations that Alaska GOP Gov. Sarah Palin plagiarized a column Gingrich co-authored four years ago are "just silly."

"I'm thrilled if Sarah Palin used a Newt Gingrich idea from an op-ed, or speech, or column or whatever," Gingrich spokesman Rick Tyler told POLITICO. "[Gingrich's] response to people repeating his ideas has always been good."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...

Thank G-d for denials, I nearly missed this entirely.

---

by: JimC @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 08:54:01 AM CDT

Badge of Honor (4.00 / 2)

I'm afraid there will be a flare up in what is now a subtle element of classism in the health care debate. Many of my upper middle class friends view the fact that they have "achieved health care" as a badge of honor. To allow low and working class folks to more easily attain what they struggled for, apparently, diminishes their accomplishment in this dog-eat-dog world.

That, my friends, is the handiwork of the Jedi mind tricksters that serve our corporate feudal masters.

A reasonable level of healthcare is a human right, not a priviledge. How is it that we provide education for the masses, but not healthcare?

www.KusterforCongress.com  

---

by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 09:29:51 AM CDT

interesting idea (4.00 / 1)

There are definitely many in this country who have sacrificed their preferences in profession, employment, residence, physician, etc...all to get or keep "benefits." It seems likely to me that some at least of these folks will fall into "I suffered and sacrificed, you should too" instead of "We need to change this broken system."

---

by: Mormo @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 09:50:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cost becoming a factor (4.00 / 2)

Most employees with insurance have to pay a portion of the premiums, which have been increasing steadily every year.  I suspect that they also will want to see the system fixed, especially when wages are stagnant. Plus, with all the employment uncertainty, anyone who is counting on their job to last until medicare eligibility is more optimistic than Pollyanna!  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

---

by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 10:35:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

most people (4.00 / 1)

at the grassroots level understand the need for, and want a single payer system.

Unfortunately, they elect people who have other interests.  

---

by: susanthe @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 11:20:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Misread that for a moment (4.00 / 1)

At first I read "a subtle element of classicism" and thought we were going to have another thread on Latin and Greek.

IT for John Lynch '04 and NHDP '08 - I'm liking my track record so far!

---

by: RealNRH @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 15:19:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't think the classicist element is subtle here (0.00 / 0)

I'm just sad that the most publicly prominent classicist today is such an idiot bully. It's folks like Dean that get me into the field...though it's got to be pretty rusty by now.

---

by: Mormo @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 18:47:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We are building a 50 state strategy (0.00 / 0)

http://politicalticker.blogs.c...
June 9, 2009
Obama health care czar briefs Democrats on WH strategy
Posted: 10:53 AM ET
From CNN Political Editor Mark Preston

WASHINGTON (CNN) - President Obama deployed his health czar Monday to brief state Democratic Party leaders, operatives and activists on the White House's strategy to pass health care reform this year, a party source tells CNN.

Nancy-Ann DeParle's conference call with Democratic state party chairs, senior state political aides and health care activists follows Organizing for America's campaign-style house parties, held this past weekend to help build support for health care reform from the grassroots level. DeParle serves as counselor to the president and director of the White House Office of Health Reform.

Obama himself called on Congress this past weekend to send him a health care bill by October.

"We are building off of the 50-state strategy and making sure we are able to use the state parties as an effective tool, in addition to President Obama's grassroots network, Organizing for America, to advance the president's agenda," said a source familiar with the details of the call, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

www.whyanonymity.com ?

www.KusterforCongress.com

---

by: JonnyBBad @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 11:57:20 AM CDT

I conducted that call on Monday (0.00 / 0)

and I did not, nor did anyone else on the call, ever tell folks they couldn't talk about the call. I don't know why someone would choose to be anonymous.

Doing my best to elect NH Democrats since 1968 and getting better at it every year!

---

by: Ray Buckley @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 at 03:08:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

thank you that seemed weird n/t (0.00 / 0)

www.KusterforCongress.com

---

by: JonnyBBad @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 at 23:08:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Our sick uncle (4.00 / 1)

I concede that I could be projecting, but, returing to the city, I have the sense that the Globe's relationship with its readers is broken. I noticed some Globe boxes pulled from Dartmouth Street, and I really can't remember the last time I saw someone just sitting and reading the paper.

This current life support watch is grimmer than the last one.

---

by: JimC @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 15:16:40 PM CDT

No-mentum (0.00 / 0)

The Lieberman-Graham amendment, which would empower the Pentagon to block the photos for up to three years without review, has sharply curtailed House support for the congressional war supplemental,
-snip

Sens. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said in a joint statement late Monday morning that they would take any steps possible to pass the detainee photos bill, and Graham said Monday night that he and his fellow senator remain committed to that scorched-earth policy.

"People can't believe that this is a reality, a possible reality that the detainee photos amendment will be taken out of the bill," Graham said, shortly before The Huffington Post confirmed that it was. He and Lieberman are not just open, but determined to vote against the war supplemental without the photos amendment, he said, "and I think we'll carry a lot of people with us."

PS. The vision thing.

www.KusterforCongress.com  

---

by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 17:06:44 PM CDT

great (0.00 / 0)

Lieberman and Graham threaten to shut down the Senate

Graham said there is consensus among many senators, military officials and diplomats about the need to pass the bill. Even the White House is in support, he said, and helped them draft the bill, remaining supportive of it in conference.

I certainly hope Lindsay Graham is lying, after all that talk of transparency by candidate Obama.

To sum this up simply - if these two are in agreement about something, it's bad for the country.  

---

by: susanthe @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 17:27:13 PM CDT

Earlier (0.00 / 0)

Mike Hoefer dittoed one of my posts.

Better check my horoscope. Or is it karma?

www.KusterforCongress.com  

---

by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 17:42:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This will make elwood smile (4.00 / 1)

McAuliffe concedes, backs Deeds in Virginia

Posted: 08:35 PM ET
ARLINGTON, Virginia (CNN) - Longtime Clinton ally and former Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe has conceded to state senator Creigh Deeds in the party's gubernatorial primary, calling on his supporters to back Deeds in his general election battle against Republican Bob McDonnell.

www.KusterforCongress.com  

---

by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 19:50:36 PM CDT

Mr. Deeds Goes To Richmond. (0.00 / 0)

A moment of silence for Terry Mac, everyone.

Okay, that's enough.

Too bad about Brian Moran, though, I guess; had I been a Virginian, I'd probably have spent the last few months working for him, and now be consoling myself with a bottle of Bacardi.

In any case, this should be consecutive Democratic Governor #3 for Virginia since The National Joke Formerly Known As George Allen. Huzzah!

---

by: Tim C. @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 19:52:22 PM CDT

Game On (4.00 / 1)

As I watch the Penguins try to force a Game 7, I thought of my all time favorite commercial.

Bud Light - Old Timer Rusty Robiere - Bubble Hockey Boys 1999


www.KusterforCongress.com  

---

by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 21:00:08 PM CDT

Nobody could have predicted ... (0.00 / 0)

Note the video under Wrong About Everything.
http://www.eschatonblog.com/

It's rude, of course, to say "I told you so." But we were right about Bush, right about the potential for the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, right about the economy ...

And they were right about ... what?

---

by: JimC @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 at 11:03:04 AM CDT