About
Learn More about our progressive online community for the Granite State.

Create an account today (it's free and easy) and get started!
Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?


Search




Advanced Search


The Masthead
Managing Editors


Jennifer Daler

Contributing Writers
elwood
Mike Hoefer
susanthe

ActBlue Hampshire

The Roll, Etc.
Prog Blogs, Orgs & Alumni
Betsy Devine
Blue News Tribune (MA)
Democracy for NH
Live Free or Die
Mike Caulfield
Granite State Progress
Seacoast for Change
Susan the Bruce

Politicos & Punditry
Krauss
Landrigan
Lawson
Pindell
Primary Monitor
Scala
Schoenberg
Spiliotes
Welch

Campaigns, Et Alia.
Paul Hodes
Carol Shea-Porter
John DeJoie
Ann McLane Kuster
ActBlue Hampshire
NHDP
DCCC
DSCC
DNC

National
Balloon Juice
billmon
Congress Matters
DailyKos
Digby
Hold Fast
Eschaton
FiveThirtyEight
MyDD
The Next Hurrah
Open Left
Senate Guru
Swing State Project
Talking Points Memo

50 State Blog Network
Alabama
Arizona
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin

I made the mistake of making a pro-tax comment on Unionleader.com

by: TimothyHorrigan

Sat Oct 24, 2009 at 14:23:56 PM EDT


I did sonething Friday which may have been a mistake: I added a pro-income tax comment to the comments section of a Union Leader article about Susan Almy's "tax summit" (which was in fact just a two-day information session.)  I was not surprised that my fellow Unionleader.com readers reacted negatively to the comment.  But I was struck by how vehemnent they were: the problem ran deeper than just one of an income tax being a bad idea.  (By the way, I just think the income tax is the least bad of a number of bad options.)
TimothyHorrigan :: I made the mistake of making a pro-tax comment on Unionleader.com
Here is my comment:

I perhaps should not be saying this, since I am a state rep posting under his full name--- but the best solution to the revenue crisis would be an income tax based on the numbers on the federal 1040 form which most of us file anyway.

An antitax witness accidentally divulged a piece of data which suports this pro-income tax position. 16% of NH's workforce--- 1 in 6--- already pays state income tax.

That probably translates to more than 1 family in 6, since most people live in family groups including parents and children (and oftentimes grandparents and grandchildren) who don't all work at the same place. But in any case, at least 1 Granite State family in 6 pays our obscenely high property taxes and our pretty high sales taxes and our businesses taxes--- AND some other state's income tax. Why do they choose to do such a thing? Because avoiding taxes is not the be-all and end-all of life. Even with the property tax, it is still worthwhile to live in NH. Even with the income tax, it is still worthwhile to get up every morning and go to work in Massachusetts (or some other state.)
- Timothy Horrigan, Durham, NH

This is a fairly mild pro-tax comment, I think.  But some of the responses were far from mild.  None of them gave their full names.  The first one was a regular commenter, Spike from Brentwood:

Rep. Horrigan curiously doesn't disclose his party affiliation (Democrat; with a "D" grade from the NH Liberty Alliance). And his pro-income-tax arguments are familiar: (1) You'll hardly notice it; and (2) It won't be the worst thing that ever happens to you. Perhaps paying it won't be. Perhaps the harassment from the extra coat-holders you will put on salary in the hack-dom will be. What additional aspects of my life could you dictate with a thousand extra bureaucrats?

No indeed, in life, avoiding taxes isn't everything. But, in dealings with the thieves from the Legislature, it's the only thing.
- Spike, Brentwood NH

(I am a dues-paying member of the NH Liberty Alliance, although the dues are onlty $20/yr. I was the only Democrat rep aside from the maverick Joel Winters to show up at their annual dinner this summer.  My D rating is about average for Democrats.  My Reagan Republican ranking is 24%, which makes me a relatively conservative member of the Majority Democratic caucus.)

David from Manchester had a somewhat more intelligent response:


NH residents work in income-tax states because that is where the work is. I myself worked in MA for 15 years and I hated having to fill out MA's Form 1-NR. When I was able to get a job in NH it felt like an instant $1,300 per year pay increase.

NH residents who work out of state and commute 2 to 5 hours each day do so because:
- many industries out of state pay better than those in NH
- they are afraid to even risk changing jobs in this economy
- they need the health benefits for their families
- MA unemployment benefits are far superior to NH's unemployment benefits

By law, one cannot pay the same tax more than once. NH residents working out of state would pay a NH income tax first, then pay the difference to the other state. They would pay the same amount of income tax, except now split between 2 states. Where is the savings for them?

To suggest that since 1 in 6 NH residents already pays out-of-state income tax, NH should have its own income tax to capture that money is preposterous and a disservice to NH.
- David R, Manchester

(Interesting, however, that he doesn't view redirecting some of Massachusetts' current tax revenue stream to our own state as a desirable outcome.)

One of my constituents on the other hand, misconstrued what I had to say, and overlooked the fact that I implied that the income tax was not as bad as the alternatives:

As my Rep, there is no tax that the radical Rep Horrigan doesn't like.
- Charles, Durham, NH


I don't know who he is.  There can't be that many registered Republicans named Charles in town, but there may be more than one of them left.  And in fact he didn't actually say he was a registered Republican.
.

Poll
State Income Tax: Threat or Menace?
Threat
Menace
Income? What's "Income"?
None of the Above
All of the Above

Results

Tags: , , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Since time is my most valuable asset, I don't want to waste it (0.00 / 0)
filling out more forms.  Besides, people like me who are elderly and don't earn more than $25000 aren't going to need to file with the IRS, so burdening them with a state return will be doubly odious.  And then there's the reality that the federal income tax is voluntary and evaders are already hard enough to catch.
A sales tax that's collected at every purchase is also odious.  Were it to be incorporated in the price as the gasoline tax is, it would be marginally better.
I think what I prefer at this point is a money transfer or transaction tax which would be collected by financial institutions as the money flows in and out.  There's been an estimate that a tax of one half of one percent (a penny on every two dollars) would produce sufficient revenue, if employed nationwide, to fund all levels of government.  So, we could eliminate the IRS and all the other levies that are so bothersome and cumbersome to collect.
Obviously, a money transfer tax would be equitable in that those who use more money more often will pay more.

http://ideas.repec.org/p/pra/m...


I really am not sure about something (4.00 / 1)
The anti-taxer pointed the 16% out and added that NH doesn't have a tax reciprocity agreement with Massachusetts.  That means they can't collect each other's taxes.  This, we were told, meant MA wd still get the taxes on all that income. (Question: Is that accurate?)

I am pretty sure that even without a reciprocity agreement, a taxpayer by law has to be able to take one state's tax as a credit against the other.  Hence, your cross-border income can only be taxed once, but you would pay the higher tax rate.

If we added an income tax, would a NH resident who works in NH be able to pick which state she paid the tax to first--- or would she have to pay MA first and then NH would get what's left over? (Or vice versa?)


As I understand it: (0.00 / 0)
Massachusetts fully taxes income paid to a New Hampshire resident working in MA, at 5.3%. If NH wants to not double-tax him/her, NH must include the credit in its own income tax.

Massachusetts fully taxes income paid to a Massachusetts resident working in NH. But, it allows a credit for any income tax paid to the non-MA employer (NH in this case). No special reciprocity agreement needed. See Page 22, Line 11.

So: live in Lowell, work in Nashua. Today you pay 5.3% income tax to MA.

If NH institutes a 5% income tax, you will pay 5% to NH and 0.3% to MA. If NH institutes a 6% income tax, you will pay 6% to NH and get no refund from MA.

Live in Nashua, work in Lowell: Today pay 5.3% to MA.

If NH institutes a really stoopid 5% income tax with no credit for income taxes paid elsewhere, pay 5.3% to MA and an additional 5% to NH. (Would this pass Constitutional muster? No idea.)

If NH institutes a 'normal' income tax with credits for income tax paid elsewhere, at 5% pay nothing to NH, at 6% pay 0.7% to our southern neighbors.


[ Parent ]
Arg - that last line should be (0.00 / 0)
"at 5% pay 0 to NH and 5.3% to MA, at 6% pay 0.7% to NH and 5.3% to MA."

[ Parent ]
How would I like it if (0.00 / 0)
a thread here was excerpted on UL.com - and people who never bothered to read the whole thing started commenting on the supposed (and perhaps real) flaws in my logic or data?

I wouldn't. Which is why I think this is bad practice. It's just too tempting to add my incisive response to David's comment - but that sort of behind-the-back talk isn't helpful to either of us.

(All that said - I'm entirely sympathetic. Diving into the comments section on the UL would make any survivor want to tell the story to a different crowd.)


commenting standards (4.00 / 2)
I think newspapers should follow the same standards on their websites that they do in their LTE section. If they would not allow anon letters in the paper not sure why they allow anon comments on their sites.

Hope > Fear



Create a free Blue Hampshire account and join the conversation.


People would simply lie (0.00 / 0)
I'm a web software engineer and to my knowledge there really isn't any way to force people to identify themselves.  You can do sneaky things to try to figure out who they are without them knowing, though.

The papers just want eyeballs viewing their advertisements, anyways.  They aren't going to do anything to complicate people leaving comments if it might reduce traffic.


[ Parent ]
Connect with BH
     
Blue Hampshire Blog on Facebook
Powered by: SoapBlox