Open Thread: Granite Gusher

Being Free To Speak (0.00 / 0)

doesn't always mean that you should.

Helen Thomas has announced that she is retiring, effective immediately. Her decision comes in the wake of controversy surrounding her comments about Jews, Palestinians and Israel.

The Hearst corporation issued a statement announcing Thomas' decision.
-snip

(h/t TPM)

Whack-a-mole, anyone?

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 11:40:16 AM CDT

that doesn't seem to stop (0.00 / 0)

Pat Buchanan. In fact, the well-known anti-Semite, Mr. Buchanan is still published, and still seen on TV doing political commentary.

I think the penalties are different for girls.


sanctimonious purist/professional lefty

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by: susanthe @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 12:31:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I hate to see (0.00 / 0)

Thomas go out like this.

I hope she ditches Hearst and comes back, so she can finish strong.

The penalties ARE different for girls. That is for sure.

Whack-a-mole, anyone?

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 12:44:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Penalties for Girls (0.00 / 0)

Here in Manchester recently, a female school teacher  resigned immediately after alcohol was found in her classroom. Mayor Gatsas twice asked the school board to revoke her resignation so that she could be fired. The school board refused to do so.  A male Manchester police officer was found guilty, after a trial, of assault, and he resigned. The mayor did not ask for that resignation to be revoked.

I think both employees did the right thing in resigning, but the mayor's reaction was telling: the woman who has a drinking problem should be fired, the man convicted of assault should be allowed to resign.

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 13:15:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Off-hand comments (0.00 / 0)

The propensity for forcing the resignations of people for off-hand comments has to end.  Ms. Thomas' remarks were insensitive, but probably not hateful; they were over-the-top, but probably not sincere; they were spoken, but not well thought out.  Hopefully Ms. Thomas' view that the Palestinians deserve a free homeland and that Israel is infringing on their human rights is sincere, and hopefully the more hateful statement that Jews should leave Palestine/Israel was not sincere, but the result of an angry, off-the-cuff remark that she has said she regrets.

Assuming this is the case, Ms. Thomas is just the last in a huge line of people who have been forced out of public office, etc for foolish, unscripted comments.  Everyone, whether in the public eye or not, has done the same thing, and given the technological advances that allow such a comment to explode, we need to re-examine whether or not a stupid remark is reason enough for public banishment.

If I am incorrect about the sincerity of her remarks, then my point does not apply to Ms. Thomas, but it is still valid.  Soon we'll realize that no one is left standing--and even fewer good people are willing to engage--in politics and public life unless we stop crucifying everyone whose foot ends up in their mouth.

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by: FrankLloydMike @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 12:44:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I saw the video of her comments (0.00 / 0)

and still can't see anything particularly wrong with what she said.  I would have phrased it differently, but her point is that Israel is committing human rights violations against the Palestinians on a near daily basis and that Palestine deserves a safe and free homeland where they can live peacefully.  Why is that so offensive?

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by: Timmy J @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 13:06:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Are you kidding? (4.00 / 1)

Put aside where you stand on Israel, Palestine,the Middle East. She said, "they" - i.e., the Israelis - should go home to Germany and Poland. Jews were slaughtered in Germand and Poland in our parents' lifetimes.

Josh Marshall said this at TPM, which I think is pretty thoughtful:

And there's a dark comedy about all the folks in Europe now yelling at the Jews to "get out of Palestine" after their great grandparents were yelling at the Jews to "go to Palestine" and get out of ... take your pick, Poland, Austria, Russia, Romania etc.

 

This is a bloody history, filled with a lot of suffering by Jews and Arabs alike. The West Bank is full of people whose grandparents were kicked out of Jaffa and Haifa and other now-Israeli cities. And where do the Mizrahi Jews go? Should they go back to Iraq? Iran? Syria? And Egypt? Can they get their homes back? It's a bloody history and there's a way to solve it -- along the Green Line. And people need to go back to living in the present not in history.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c...

 



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 13:27:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Israel has the right to exist (4.00 / 1)

and given the geographical layout of the Middle East a sovereign right to defend itself. Imagine rockets being fired into Northern New Hampshire from Southern Quebec for thirty years. Gotta believe as Barney Frank said last week, that our response would be harsher than Israel's. Also please note that Egypt also maintains a blockade against Gaza. Not Just Israel, but Egypt also tries to limit if not eliminate the threat posed by Iranian backed militants in it's midst.

I support a two state solution. I am against the expansion of the Settlements pursued by the Netanyahu govt. I view Bibi like I did GWB...a stupid and evil man, but don't hate or revile America or Israel. In fact I work and long and hope for better conditions to move towards lasting peace.

A pre-requisite for that is for Iranian sponsored Hamas and Hezbollah to accept the existence of the State of Israel, as chartered by the League/United Nations in 1949. I am of the opinion that true peace will come if Israel's right to exist is accepted, and pre-1967 borders can be retained.

The crap about 'go back where you came from', including the places where millions were exterminated is not acceptable or even a 'mistake'. It is most likely the true feelings of Ms. Thomas,as a person of Lebanese extraction. It was unacceptable and beyond the pale.

for transparency sake ~I represent Union print shops

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by: JonnyBBad @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 13:47:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agreed... (4.00 / 1)

the remarks about "going home" are ridiculous, insensitive and indefensible.  In addition, Israel does have a right to exist.  It has existed as a state for 60 years, and at the time of its creation the need for a Jewish homeland was very real.  Whether Jews are now safe from the kind of atrocities of the past, Israel is a well-established state and home to several million people.  The notion that those who call it home should leave now would be akin to asking Americans to leave the land they took from its previous occupants.  Still, public officials, reporters, and individuals need to be able to criticize the actions and policies of the state of Israel without being called anti-Semites.  This is to say nothing of Ms. Thomas' comments, which were over-the-top and which I addressed above, but current Israeli policy is moving to the extreme far-right, its human rights violations are probably the worst of any liberal democracy, and just as Israel has a right to exist so too does Palestine.  Just as those who love America need to be able to criticize it in order to improve it, those who love Israel must be able to do the same.

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by: FrankLloydMike @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 13:55:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why did you have to ruin it (0.00 / 0)

You were going along fine. BUT then you had to look into Thomas' heart. That is beyond the pale. What are you Bush now? Is Thomas your Putin?

Whack-a-mole, anyone?

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 14:19:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

please read what I wrote (4.00 / 1)

I specifically said, "I would have phrased it differently..." because I don't think that Helen Thomas said it the right way.  Of course we don't want to kick the Jews out of Israel.  What I do agree with is what FrankLlyodMike said below:

...current Israeli policy is moving to the extreme far-right, its human rights violations are probably the worst of any liberal democracy, and just as Israel has a right to exist so too does Palestine.

So, please, read what I write instead of jumping to conclusions that I want all Jews sent back to Germany and Poland.  I don't, I just want them to be peaceful to their neighbors and allow them to exist.  There's nothing wrong with that.

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by: Timmy J @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 14:30:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

None of their neighbors (4.00 / 1)

were initially peaceful to them, none. Most still aren't. However the experience of Egypt and Jordan prove that Israel can and will be a partner to lasting peace, and will negotiate land for peace. They fought, they negotiated with strong U.S. help, and they made peace 30 years ago.

for transparency sake ~I represent Union print shops

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by: JonnyBBad @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 15:18:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My great grandparents and one grandfather came to this country from Poland, Hungary, and Austria (4.00 / 2)

My grandfather's brother was forced to fight for the Austrian Empire in World War I and was killed. He (my grandfather) was born in 1914, and came to this country shortly after WWI ended.  He was kept on a ship in Boston Harbor for six months before the decision was made not to send it back.  Many decades later, in his retirement, he had the opportunity to travel throughout Europe, and refused every suggestion of even visiting the country of his birth.

On the other side of my family, my grandmother's mother came through Ellis Island when she was 13 years old. Alone.

Both of my grandfathers fought for America in World War II.  I am a Jew and an American. I am not Polish, Hungarian, or Austrian.

As we all know, six million Jews from Axis-occupied Europe (and seven million others) were killed in Nazi death camps.  What some people may not know is that, two generations after the Holocaust, there are fewer than 14 million Jews left in the world, including 5-6 million in the United States and 6-7 million in Israel.  So let's not pretend there's such a thing as 'going back' to what was barely a home in central Europe.  The whole five hundred million-strong European Union--including Germany, Poland, Austria, Hungary, France, and the UK, to name several--has barely one million Jews now.  

I don't agree with everything every Israeli government does, just as I don't agree with everything every American administration does.  But Thomas' comment went way too far.

I agree that people are far too often destroyed by sound bytes, and I would give a very large degree of lenience for shock value humor, even in bad taste.  But this wasn't humor.  This was a deeply held and serious, unambiguous opinion stated by a well-informed person who has had plenty of time to think about it.  It makes sense for her employer to disassociate from it.

--
Hope 2012

@DougLindner

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 15:19:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We are all one... (4.00 / 1)

Several months ago I joined ancestry dot com. Although several branches end in the early 1800's many go back a thousand years or more. The most inspiring part of doing this has been to discover the amazing diversity of my bloodline. Any who says they are just Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English, Dutch, Swedish, French, Danish, Italian, Polish, German, Czech, Turkish, Jewish or Native American doesn't know their ancestry. And I only listed the people that I have discovered I am descendent! I am sure as the months go on, I will discover even more.

My point is, where would any of us really go back to?  

2012 starts today.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 16:23:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

More Souter speech notice - (0.00 / 0)

Today's Sentinel editorial.

(Pssst. It's Mel Thomson.)

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by: elwood @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 20:49:46 PM CDT

More Souter speech notice - (0.00 / 0)

Today's Sentinel editorial.

(Pssst. It's Mel Thomson.)

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by: elwood @ Mon Jun 07, 2010 at 20:49:46 PM CDT

Boston Globe Talks Primaries (0.00 / 0)

Officials from both parties have separate proposals that would ban states from holding their vote before the first Tuesday of March, with four exemptions: the Granite State; Iowa, which holds the first caucuses; South Carolina; and Nevada. And no state can hold a contest before Feb. 1.

Implicit in the plans is the parties' determination to infuse more discipline into the scheduling. When the primaries of 2008 approached, defiant states leapt over one another in a bid to hold their vote earlier, and the national parties retaliated by withholding delegates from the most recalcitrant interlopers. As the process disintegrated, election officials in New Hampshire vowed to keep its role as the first primary in the nation, even if voters had to slog to the polls during the Christmas season.

It almost reached that point: New Hampshire ballots were cast on Jan. 8, the earliest ever.

Party officials are looking for a less frenetic approach.

Whack-a-mole, anyone?

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jun 08, 2010 at 14:40:55 PM CDT