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Sunday Meta: Do we need a "1" Rating?

by: Mike Hoefer

Sun Jun 05, 2011 at 00:00:00 AM EDT


As Blue Hampshire was originally concieved it had a simple, binary even, rating system for user comments. A "4" meant"Thumbs Up! I enjoyed and/or agree with the sentiment" of your comment. Whereas a "0" meant"This comment is trollish and should be hidden!".

The "0" rating is a way for the BH community to manage itself and protect it from truly trollish* or spammy behavior. If enough "0s" pile up, the comment is hidden from the general public and the admins can ban/delete the comments/user later.

The challenge in this approach comes from our own "Getting Started Guide"

You have the ability to rate the comments of others.  If you read something particularly useful or insightful, you may give the author a 4 or Excellent rating. On the other hand, if you feel that a comment was written whose sole purpose is to degrade the conversation or be intentionally abusive, you may choose to give it a 0 or Troll rating, a substantial number of which will cause the comment to be hidden. A significant number of troll ratings may also result in the account being banned. Note: Troll rating a comment simply because you disagree with it is considered ratings abuse and is grounds for banning the user.

Despite pleas to the contrary, folks often use the "0" to mean "I disagree" or "I find your comment to be rude or unbecoming." Other than writing it out as a reply to the offending comment which, while it has merits often only goes to further hijack the thread, We have no way of saying" Mike we know you are not a troll but I think your comment was out of line"

The "1" rating could open up a whole new can of worms, hurt feelings, etc. This is what the site founders were afraid of when choosing the current approach to comment rating. But introducing the "1"  might also be a way for the community to define the acceptable tenor and style of the comments on the site, or, at minimum, publicly distance themselves from a comment, without having to use the "Troll Rating"

What do you think? Should we introduce a "1" to our comment rating system? We will take all comments in consideration as we mull over the pros and cons. Regardless of the decision I think discussion on the topic will be helpful for the community.

*Neat! Wikipedia Definition of Troll references "IndyNH" vis-a-vis BH as an example of concern troll

An example of this occurred in 2006 when Tad Furtado, a top staffer for then-Congressman Charles Bass (R-NH), was caught posing as a "concerned" supporter of Bass's opponent, Democrat Paul Hodes, on several liberal New Hampshire blogs, using the pseudonyms "IndieNH" or "IndyNH". "IndyNH" expressed concern that Democrats might just be wasting their time or money on Hodes, because Bass was unbeatable.[17][18]
Mike Hoefer :: Sunday Meta: Do we need a "1" Rating?
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Yes. (4.00 / 1)
There are times when I'd like to register strong disagreement without troll-rating or cluttering a thread with a bunch of posts that just say "I strongly disagree".

On the other hand, there are times I'd like to un-troll rate a comment without calling it "excellent". But that one might be an argument for a 2.

--
Hope > Anarch-tea
Twitter: @DougLindner


How About "3"? (4.00 / 1)
I think the "key" is to better understand what the "O" means.  Then perhaps a "1" won't be necessary.

But I do think you might want to think of a "3" level.  

I find myself rating a lot of comments "4" because the point(s) made are good, even excellent, but I still might disagree with some of it.  I sometimes hesitate giving a "4" because I'd rather my "4" not seem like full agreement, but I usually err on the side of being generous and courteous.  After all, a lot of comments deserve some expression of appreciation to the writer, and if the choice is "0" or "4," I'll do the "4."  

I'll mention that I have yet to use a "0," and I have sometimes rated a comment I disagree with but which I think contributes to the discussion a "4" if someone else has already rated it a "0" when I think that's ratings abuse.

A "3" meaning "I might not fully agree with you, but you make great points and/or your comment contributes positively to the discussion and gives us things to think about" would be good balance.  

Of course, then we might be rating lots of comments "3."  But that's okay.  Ratings of "4" would infer excellence AND agreement.

Just something to think about.  


Agree (0.00 / 0)
I agree.  A "3" would be less harsh than a "1."

[ Parent ]
Some history. (4.00 / 1)
Back in BH pre-history, we had a 0-4 system.

But it quickly devolved into some users thinking they had been slighted for getting a 3 or 2, so we did what dKos did, which IIRC had the same problem, which was switching to o and 4 only (which dKos later renamed but we didn't).

I personally have no problem at all with more variation in ratings, but FWIW that's the history.

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker


The Carl Nyberg 3 (4.00 / 1)
DailyKos used to have 0-4 ratings. There was ONE poster who actually used the 3: Carl Nyberg.

People would review their comments and see a 3.87 and wonder, "Did somebody troll rate me for THAT?" Because everyone else gave 0s or 4s.

That was on our minds when we discussed the rating scale here, early on.

So, there is  some history suggesting that people flock to either 0 or 4, and the apparent value of more choices doesn't get used.


[ Parent ]
A "4" for remembering Carl Nyberg!!! (4.00 / 3)
Or maybe, a "3" for remembering Carl Nyberg???

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker

[ Parent ]
3.5? (0.00 / 0)
you know how I love to find the point at which we compromise...its like riding the seesaw...

note to close readers: this might be sarcastic so think twice before reading to candidates for use in their attacks on each other

[ Parent ]
This is starting to look like GPA points. (4.00 / 1)


--
Hope > Anarch-tea
Twitter: @DougLindner


[ Parent ]
or (0.00 / 0)
only a like button, ...if you think someone is a troll say so.

note to close readers: this might be sarcastic so think twice before reading to candidates for use in their attacks on each other

It ain't broke, IMHO. n/t (0.00 / 0)


They. Don't. Care.
We do.
Rinse, repeat.


Now I know why I love this place so much.... (0.00 / 0)


"A national political campaign is better than the best circus ever heard of, with a mass baptism and a couple of hangings thrown in."  H.L Mencken.



New rating (4.00 / 1)
I think you need a new rating to warn people that the next comment is by Seth Cohn.

HA! (4.00 / 1)
Nobody expects the Seth-ish In-Cohn-sition...
Our chief weapons... oh, never mind. (grin)

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.

[ Parent ]
lol (4.00 / 1)
+1 for the Cardinal Fang reference. But let me ask you, are you progressive-curious? You sure seem to be spending a lot of time here--not that there's anything wrong with that.

[ Parent ]
I'm very socially progressive... (0.00 / 0)
In fact, I'm so socially progressive that Kathy Sullivan looks like a social conservative from here.  

"Stay out of my Marriage" makes her sound like one of the right-wing reactionaries complaining about marriage equality the last few years, and she's decided to make it the prime first focus of her new advocacy group to complain about my bill, HB569, that some progressives support the ideas behind. (Instead of maybe focusing on the Repeal bills, which BTW, I will speak against.)

The irony is that I've talked to strong social conservatives who support HB569 as well - that's the appeal of this approach: it unites us all and moves forward the discussion, perhaps even nationally.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
Prove it, Seth! (4.00 / 1)
You voted to subvert the separation of powers by ordering the attorney general to join a lawsuit he correctly thinks has no merit. I'm sure you will vote with your leadership, as you are a part of it, to defund Planned Parenthood, thus denying many women in the state access to cost effective, quality reproductive health care. You already said you would vote for the "parental notification" law, which is nothing but an attempt to reverse Roe v Wade on the backs of the most vulnerable population.
I am also assuming you will vote with your leadership, as this was Bill O'Brien's initiative, to set NH's divorce law back to the 19th century, when women were legally considered chattel.

This is not socially progressive, no matter what shade of lipstick you put on the pig.


[ Parent ]
HB89 comes to my committee (0.00 / 0)
I voted to pass the bill, with the understanding that it would next come to my committee, Constitutional Review.  I've already discussed with multiple members of the committee, including Democrats, my agreement that we need to settle the issue of 'is it Consitutitional?', and I've been skeptical of that up to now.  Rep. Blankenbecker gave some good examples we'll certainly be reviewing to see what's what there.

I said I'd vote for a notification bill with safety provisions, despite being pro-choice, because of the parental rights issues raised.  I just spoke before Education and a large crowd of people entirely on the importance of parental rights, so my stance is consistent there...
And for the record, I'm not a parent, so this isn't for some personal gain or control over my own kids - it's about the principles for me.

My mind is far from made up on 'defunding Planned Parenthood'... I'm against taxpayer funding of medical services, but they do serve a valuable community resource for low income health care.  I'd love to talk to folks about the pros and cons of that.

And as for the divorce bill, I've spoken to 2 of the co-sponsors about my concerns with it, and plan on speaking against it based on those concerns.

But hey, let's not let the facts spoil your indignation.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
I'll wait to see how (4.00 / 1)
you actually vote on these things, Seth, but I'm happy to hear you have an open mind on some things.

But as a "libertarian" how can you be for a law that intrudes on people's bodies and relationships the way parental notification does?

If you want a parental notification law, why not have minors, both male and female, get a permission slip signed before engaging in sexual intercourse and hand it to a judge. Why wait until the horse is out of the barn, so to speak?

That it only applies to young women seeking to terminate a pregnancy makes it suspect.

I knew a family who were so-called "born agains". The father kicked the daughter out of the house when she reached 16, and for no good reason. It was after this she was roaming from house to house, living on couches, etc. and then she got pregnant.  

Every so often one reads about a woman (young or older) who gets pregnant, hides it (yes, some parents are that out of it, which begs the question of their "rights"), has the baby and throws it in a dumpster or somewhere. But that's okay, right?


[ Parent ]
"Parents should be in the driver's seat" (0.00 / 0)
I was quoted as saying it on Tuesday for the hearings before Education, and I will likely be quoted for saying it today before Children and Family law on HB416.  Same Principle.  The US Supreme Court is absolutely clear on this (way even before Ayotte v Planned Parenthood): Parents have the right to make decisions about their minor children as a Constitutional Right.  Since the 1920s, and repeatedly since...

So when Constitutional Rights conflict (as they do in parental notification situations: the right of control of your own body for reproductive freedom, and the right of parental control over minors), you try and find an answer that respects all the rights if possible, and if not, at least recognizes all of them as having some merit.  Notification is not control, so it's clear that the right valued more is reproductive freedom in this case.  But I'm NOT comfortable with saying Parental Control is entirely absent, trumped out entirely, since they ARE minors. So notification is the recognition that the parents have a right to be, at the least, told, since they are legally responsible for the minor and any decisions about them, and we're interrupting that right in favor of another.

If you think I'm ok with dumpster babies, think again... but I'm not convinced that's a good reason to void a Constitutional Right of parents in general.

And I know libertarians who are pro-life (and principle-ly so.)  I'm pro-choice. Don't assume libertarians are all pro-choice, though.  There are freedom folks on both sides of that issue, all of whom are convinced they are correct about it.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.


[ Parent ]
You can't have it both ways about troll ratingsq (0.00 / 0)
The guide states "On the other hand, if you feel that a comment was written whose sole purpose is to degrade the conversation or be intentionally abusive, you may choose to give it a 0 or Troll rating, a substantial number of which will cause the comment to be hidden."

Then you write "Despite pleas to the contrary, folks often use the "0" to mean "I disagree" or "I find your comment to be rude or unbecoming.""

Excuse me, but aren't "intentionally abusive" and "rude or unbecoming" frequently the same?


I was thinking the same thing. (0.00 / 0)


Be fiscally responsible: nhecon.blogspot.com

[ Parent ]
"Sole purpose" (0.00 / 0)
Does not really allow your interpretation.

[ Parent ]
Right, I think "Sole Purpose" (0.00 / 0)
Is the confusing thing. the difference between being rude for rudes sake, and being clumsy while trying to express another viewpoint

Hope >> Fear





Create a free Blue Hampshire account and join the conversation.


[ Parent ]
I guess what I'm looking for (4.00 / 1)
is the ability to say (quickly, with a rating)

"I think Your comment about Hillary Clinton was out of line, but I know your are not a troll Jack"

;-)

Hope >> Fear





Create a free Blue Hampshire account and join the conversation.


[ Parent ]
I don't think the ratings are useful. (0.00 / 0)
As far as I can tell, the ratings reflect ideology more than anything else. (Whether raters do this intentionally or not, I do not know.) There are occasional exceptions, but people seem to mostly give 4 ratings to the slightly better comments that they agree with, and 0 ratings to the slightly worse comments that they disagree with.

In the end, the rating system only discourages whoever happens to be in the minority on a particular issue. I find it hard to believe that it has somehow improved the quality of the discussion.

Be fiscally responsible: nhecon.blogspot.com


Disagree. (4.00 / 1)
0 ratings are rare and to be used sparingly for conduct that has no place on BH.  It shouldn't be simple disagreement. That's why it would be inappropriate for me to troll rate the Will May comment I'm replying to.

4 ratings, however, are intended to be given by users to "better comments that they agree with." That's what it's for.  Blue Hampshire comments are expressions of opinion--99% of the time, when you see a post rated "4", the rater intended the message to be "I strongly agree", "I appreciate this", "Good one", etc. Nobody's pretending to be objective here. I'm an activist, not a journalist.

--
Hope > Anarch-tea
Twitter: @DougLindner


[ Parent ]
Incorrect observation (4.00 / 3)
but people seem to mostly give 4 ratings to the slightly better comments that they agree with, and 0 ratings to the slightly worse comments that they disagree with.

Four years of rated comments at BH do not bear this out at all for the 0 rating.

birch paper; on Twitter @deanbarker


[ Parent ]
I'm skeptical, but (0.00 / 0)
let's assume this is true, for the sake of the discussion.

Have the troll ratings had a noticeable positive impact?

(Aside- Mike, in the post, sounds like he agrees with me: "Despite pleas to the contrary, folks often use the "0" to mean "I disagree" or "I find your comment to be rude or unbecoming."")

Be fiscally responsible: nhecon.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 1)
Have the troll ratings had a noticeable positive impact?

Yes.


[ Parent ]
There have been occasions (0.00 / 0)
were someone really stunk up the place in a hurry and the troll rating help. It has been while I think

Hope >> Fear





Create a free Blue Hampshire account and join the conversation.


[ Parent ]
Hunh. (0.00 / 0)
I know they tried out a rating system at Free Keene for a bit, but they ended up scrapping it because it disadvantaged non-libertarians so much, and seemed to be more of a hassle than anything else.

But the ratings had more influence in their system, so it was more of a problem.

I'm scared to think of what happens when people stink up this place, given my normal experience here. ; )

But yes, to answer the original question, I would prefer to have a "1" option.

Be fiscally responsible: nhecon.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]
Well, you said that was the rule (0.00 / 0)
with occasional exceptions.

Mike didn't say that at all.


[ Parent ]
Right. (0.00 / 0)
Because it's just impossible that one of the site moderators would have views even remotely similar to someone who has a "tarian" at the end of his "liberal".

:-P

Be fiscally responsible: nhecon.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]

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