Tobin Indicted for Lying About Phone-Jamming

Ahem (0.00 / 0)

Can some of the lawyers in the house weigh in on this?

Specifically, my question is, why is the charge not "obstruction of justice?" Why is it this crap about lying to the FBI? Of course one should not lie to the FBI in the course of its investigation, but he was not under oath, and isn't it a given that some of the people being questioned will lie?

I don't doubt his culpability, and the "justice delayed" aspect of this, but process is process. Isn't this what sent Martha Stewart to jail? Lying to the government, when they couldn't convict her on insider trading?

I am prepared to admit I may be all wet, if my lawyers so advise.

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 13:00:54 PM CDT

False Statements (4.00 / 1)

The two charges of making false statements to the FBI each are a felony charge, and each carry a maximum penalty of five years imprisonment and a $250,000 fine.  So, these are serious charges with serioius ramifications.

 

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 13:41:57 PM CDT

Yes - (4.00 / 2)

I don't understand the difference between "making false statements" and "perjury," or what threshold must be crossed to charge obstruction, but the penalties for this make clear that the charges are not lightweight technicalities.

It reminds me of the Scooter Libby case - it's a "meta-crime." When someone successfully impairs an investigation, it's important to prosecute fully.  

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by: elwood @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 13:53:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OK (0.00 / 0)

But why is that?

Say you and I are in a gang, and we sell drugs. But then you do something worse, and the cops come looking. I get scared and go straight. But I still live by one piece of the code, and when the cops come to me, I refuse to rat you out.

So then you're caught, and they go after your known associates. They fail to convict me on the drug charges, I destroyed the evidence. But they know I lied to them, so they bust me for that.

In this scenario, I'm not only a criminal, I'm also just plain wrong. But where is the line? If it's your mother who lied for you, they won't bust her. But they'll bust me, in this example. Isn't there, at best, an element of subjectivity here?

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 14:22:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For both Libby and Tobin (4.00 / 1)

your example is way off.

The analogy in their case is: the cops get me, the low-level drug-dealer, and send me up. They have evidence - including my testimony - that you were my boss, and they are after YOUR boss. You are neck deep in it, still.

You have lied about your own involvement and claimed you've never met they guy they say is your boss.

They can't prove you handed me the drugs, but they CAN prove you lied about your involvement and your boss.
===

Is there an element of subjectivity? Yes. Prosecutorial discretion may come into play. But you broke the law, and there is no suggestion that you have since reformed.

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by: elwood @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:07:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is an important point (0.00 / 0)

What you're describing sounds like the Enron prosecution model. They grabbed the lowliest guys, and worked up. By the time they got to Fastow (the CFO, and the architect of some of the worst offense), Skilling and Lay were trapped.

I wasn't trying to make direct comparisons, just to get at the issue of discretion. But "bigger fish" discretion (leniency to lower echelon workaday types) is something I can live with. It's healthier.

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:19:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My assumption is that Tobin was a firewall (4.00 / 1)

and everyone knew it.

I believe that is the case because the NRC spent millions to defend him.

The prosecutors, I believe, are making sure that Mr. Tobin finds out that a firewall will get scorched.

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by: elwood @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:22:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Introducing the "Koslowski" Unit (4.00 / 1)

One Kozlowski * is equivalent to golden urinals worth $400,000,000. being fleeced from shareholders at the alleged behest of a "Compensation Committee"...and it should equate to jail time from eight years and four months to twenty-five years in prison for a sizable role in the scandal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10...

For example;
Richard S. Fuld, Jr. former head of now bankrupt Lehman Brothers,"received nearly $500 million in salary and bonus payments in the last eight years."

Sentence =  1.2 Kozlowskis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...

*Dennis Kozlowski, jailed former head of Tyco, was Craig Benson's first (and only) Finance Chair in his futile attempt at beating John Lynch.

Tobin should do the full 5 for each crime, which would convert to 120 months or 1.2 Kozlowskis...

That's fair if you ask me. My Liberty is worth more than graft.

"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 16:51:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

*Kozlowski duh n/t (0.00 / 0)

"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 17:39:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you (0.00 / 0)

But in the interest of due diligence, and not allowing our friends in the GOP to grouse about this verdict, couldn't they be serious and still be (for lack of a better word) somewhat frivolous? In other words, yes, it's a serious offense, but would he have been charged with it if a) it weren't such a high profile case, and b) there weren't two other people who did time on it, creating the perception that he somehow beat the rap?

I just think everybody loses when the rules aren't followed, so I'm being a bit of a nudge here. Remember last month (or so), when people called for the arrest of Karl Rove? Technically, they were correct.

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 13:56:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The mice are building the mouse traps (0.00 / 0)

Ever wonder why Americans get fed up with Washington? Ever wonder why both parties seem to repeatedly drone about the other and nothing gets accomplished?

Forgive my "moment of BBad", but we gotta ask ourselves; "why does Washington fail to get these things right?"

The Libby thing, the Rove thing, the Miers thing, the Justice Dept. thing, the (fill in your own thing) thing!What will it take to rid ourselves of the infestation? And please don't say the fucking Democrats. Half our national party is a bunch of assholes, too.

This is a bullshit game played by bullshit artists! We better start keeping it real. As real as we can get it without becoming a Confederacy. As long as there is a centralized government with a revolving door from Capitol Hill to K Street, we can forget the fixing our broken system.

From Lawyer to Pol to Lobbyist/Operative, the crooks are guarding the jailhouse.

www.KusterforCongress.com  

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 14:39:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Forgiven (0.00 / 0)

Can I say it's the nonf**king Democrats? Meaning, the good ones? Progress is a slow grind.

There used to be a loudmouth guy around here, and he'd often end his comments with a refrain.

CHANGE!

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 14:56:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Good, The Bad & (4.00 / 2)

The Corrupt.

There are plenty of good Dems and there are good Republicans. Each party has had crappy scouting and their farm teams promote the ones that "fit the mold."

The GOP mold has been right out scary. Especially since Nixon. Ford and H.W. had there faults, but weren't completely bonkers. Reagan, Gingrich, Atwater, et al really poisoned the GOP.

The Dems, with bright spots in the progressive movement, have retooled. Bill Clinton had a good thing going there for awhile and that set the stage for a new crop to come up with an eye to the center.

However, as long as Washington maintains it's incestous ways; the insiders will sustain themselves. Some think themselves benevolent, but we know they will slice apart any interlopers that threaten their tidy domain.

The meat wagon that is our federal budget attracts all sorts of beasties.

www.KusterforCongress.com  

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:17:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've got an eye on the center (0.00 / 0)

That invisible point on the horizon is going to MOVE.

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:25:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Bad & Corrupt (0.00 / 0)

McCain Transition Chief Aided Saddam In Lobbying Effort

William Timmons, the Washington lobbyist who John McCain has named to head his presidential transition team, aided an influence effort on behalf of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein to ease international sanctions against his regime.

The two lobbyists who Timmons worked closely with over a five year period on the lobbying campaign later either pleaded guilty to or were convicted of federal criminal charges that they had acted as unregistered agents of Saddam Hussein's government.

During the same period beginning in 1992, Timmons worked closely with the two lobbyists, Samir Vincent and Tongsun Park, on a previously unreported prospective deal with the Iraqis in which they hoped to be awarded a contract to purchase and resell Iraqi oil. Timmons, Vincent, and Park stood to share at least $45 million if the business deal went through.

Timmons' activities occurred in the years following the first Gulf War, when Washington considered Iraq to be a rogue enemy state and a sponsor of terrorism. His dealings on behalf of the deceased Iraqi leader stand in stark contrast to the views his current employer held at the time.
-snip

www.KusterforCongress.com  

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 16:07:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't mean to Hijack (0.00 / 0)

Better take this to an Open Thread. Sorry.

www.KusterforCongress.com  

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 16:08:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

not frivolous (4.00 / 5)

There is a difference between perjury and making a false statement. Perjury is a lie under oath, as opposed to a lie to someone who is charged with investigating a crime.  What he did here wasn't refusing to "rat someone out". What he did here was lie, saying Chuck came up with the name Allen Raymond, and Chuck was the one who called Allen Raymond.  He didn't refuse to answer, he flat out lied.

Also, while I don't approve of Mr. Mitchell's language, and don't agree with his blanket condemnation of lawyers, he is right about missing the point. This isn't about whether Tobin is charged with perjury, obstruction, harrassment, or civil rights violations.

The point is that there are people who wanted John E. Sununu in the senate badly enough to break the law to get him elected.  The point is that there are people in the Republican party who so much lack moral clarity that they are willing to break the law to get their way, whether it is to discredit the Valerie Plames of the world, or to elect senators who will do the bidding of oil and gas companies, or to fire US attornies who don't want to bring politically motivate charges.  When they break the law, we need to hold them accountable, and if that means we have to use charges like lying to federal agents, then bring those charges, because one of the ways they have gotten away with all this stuff is by lying, and lying, and lying again.  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 14:58:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you again (0.00 / 0)

Well said.

I think my point was worth vetting; hope you agree.

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:04:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Always! :) n/t (4.00 / 1)

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:15:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The hope is. (0.00 / 0)

That we as the fair citizens of the State of New Hampshire make sure this crime is not repeated cause it wasn't just Jeanne that was robbed or Kathy and the good representatives of our party.  It was the good true citizens of this state that were robbed of fair representation in Washington cause the neo-con choose in everything from Iraq to Valerie Plame to rigging the Supreme Court  to make the executive branch unaccountable for their actions endangering our Democratic Process.

We must make we give our nominees and the good party officals our best on November 4th.  By what  good Arnie would say "Exercise the Franchise."

Then change things for real!


"I'm not smart enough to run the economy."

- John McCain (r) Arizona

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by: TJMCNH1 @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 19:50:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

They got Al Capone (4.00 / 1)

on Tax Evasion Jim.

"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 14:51:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My point exactly (0.00 / 0)

I think. But that was an example of the system working. He WAS tax-evading. Which is not to say Tobin is innocent, but that the system has to prevail. Capone ended up doing life not because of his convictions but because of what he did in prison.

Should I rat Elwood out for tax evasion before he rats me out? < Note to IRS: snark >

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by: JimC @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:00:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey, I'm from New Hampshire (4.00 / 1)

We don't have taxes! (ducks)

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by: elwood @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:14:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

soon we won't have either /nt (4.00 / 1)

"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 17:41:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

to quote a noted pollster (0.00 / 0)

a few weeks before the 2006 elections Andy Smith called Phone Jamming, "the gift that keeps on giving"...oh yeah thas wut ahm tawkin bout


"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 15:04:24 PM CDT

Allen Raymond on Olbermann tonight (0.00 / 0)

Not about Tobin, about ACORN.

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by: elwood @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 19:18:03 PM CDT

Incorrigible. n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: Dean Barker @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 19:37:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

He defended them - (4.00 / 2)

said that phony names are part of every registration drive and  not even a problem. (Mickey Mouse won't show up at the polling place.)

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by: elwood @ Tue Oct 14, 2008 at 19:46:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ah. rehab, then! eom (4.00 / 1)

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by: Dean Barker @ Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 04:56:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

crimes have consequences, and they should (0.00 / 0)

On the AIG front

http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes....

New York Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo demanded Wednesday that American International Group stop all "unwarranted and outrageous expenditures" and that the troubled insurance giant seek to recover any money that it spent unreasonably in the past.

He said this spending violated New York State law and he threatened to take legal action against the company if needed. A.I.G., in turn, said it would "fully cooperate" with the attorney general's office.

Once again we have hit the Kozlowski...

AIG spent about 440,000 on their affiliate sales party..
so anyone caught and convicted for taking Government Bailouts and partying at AIG should get 110- 330 months...

Go Andrew !!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 19:02:32 PM CDT