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HB 176 Live Blog

by: Jennifer Daler

Thu Feb 24, 2011 at 14:21:53 PM EST
Sitting here waiting for the Election Law Committee hearing on HB 176. Right now they are holding a hearing on HB 223, also sponsored by Rep. Greg Sorg (R-Easton). Strangely enough. most of the speakers do not seem to know which bill they are speaking to. They are confusing the subject matter of the bills. HB 223 would get rid of same day registration.

From HB 176

I. Every inhabitant of the state 18 years of age and upwards who is a citizen of the United States shall have a right to vote at any meeting and in any election in the town, city, ward, or unincorporated place where he or she has his or her domicile.

II. An inhabitant's domicile for voting purposes shall be the most recent place where he or she as an adult or where his or her parents or legal guardians with whom he or she resided as a minor established a physical presence manifesting an intention to maintain that place as his, her, or their principal and continuous place of physical presence for domestic, social, and civic purposes.

III. No person who prior to matriculation at any institution of learning in this state, and no person employed in the service of the United States who prior to being stationed in this state, had been domiciled in another place shall lose or change that domicile by reason of his or her presence in this state, but shall be presumed to have departed from such other place for a temporary purpose with the intention of returning.


More in the comments.
Jennifer Daler :: HB 176 Live Blog
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HB 176 Live Blog | 66 comments
Hearing beginning one hour late. (0.00 / 0)
Rep Sorg introducing his bill.

Reading personal statement about when he was in college. His intent was not to register to vote in MD, where he went to college.

Says college is a closed community, "educational theme park."

Saying horrible things about young people. Basically they're selfish, stupid and don't deserve to vote.

Unbelievable!!

Sorg going through a (0.00 / 0)
packet he distributed to committee members. Constitution cited. "Domicile". Citing case from 1844. Uhh--people move around a lot more than in 1844. We have cars and everything.

Now jumping to 1955. "Temporary absences"

Back to 1862.

Defining domicile as being a place one intends to remain in.

Cites a law from 2007 that uses "weasel words" defining domicile. Our law allows students to vote.

Rep Pierce questions (0.00 / 0)
asks about a court decision saying a student doesn't have to have an intention to remain. Sorg says the definition of domicile in force for centuries: intention to stay is paramount.

Pierce talks about amendment to NH Constitution that changed to domicile. From floor debates. Asking Sorg about discussions at a constitutional convention changing term. Pierce says law is treating students and military personnel differently than others.

Asking about permanent intention. Sorg says person has to show intention to remain for an indefinite period. Sorg says college students are irrelevant. Students will have to have other ways to show intention to stay. Pierce says if the students' parents live somewhere else, the students can't vote here, even if they have the intention to remain.

Rep Jasper (4.00 / 1)
says we will be passing a law. not Rep Sorg's intent.

Jasper says he is a fraternity member and many do not go home. They stay in Durham during vacations, etc. and then stay after graduation.

Asking about domicile. Is it my district, or the location of my home?

Sorg says domicile refers to both.

Jasper asking about a student whose parents move and the student doesn't move with them. Also about students who go to college at 17, never voted anywhere else and turn 18 at college.

Sorg says constitution defines the right to vote in terms of domicile.

Jasper says Sorg is proposing to change definition of domicile for voting. A bit of a testy exchange.

could be other reasons... (4.00 / 1)
that Rep. Jasper feeling testy.

As evidence, this headline via Landrigan from The Lobby:

"After heated argument, O'Brien removes Jasper from two committees
Wednesday, February 23, 201l"

Can't get past the pay wall.
I expect there will be more deets coming via free media.

[ Parent ]
Rep Richardson (0.00 / 0)
Asking about "continuous presence".

Sorg says law should go back to pre 2007.

Rep Pierce (4.00 / 2)
If you're setting up two tests for domicile depending on who you are, how is that equal?

Sorg says it is "equal enough".

Going into case law.

Assistant Attorney General informational testimony (4.00 / 2)
26th Amendment to US Constitution 18 year olds right to vote.

Every inhabitant of state of NH 18 or older has right to vote.

Back to domicile. Documents: NH driver's license, vehicle registration, US gov't id, where person sleeps most nights, where vehicle and pets are registered, where people keep personal property. Law allows students to claim domicile in NH as anyone else.

Citing 1972 cases.  

Senator Larsen (4.00 / 2)
Opposing bill. 26th Amendment. Students leaving home to attend college should decide where they want to vote.

HB 176 against students only because of who they are.  

this is a good point (4.00 / 1)
It gives students a CHOICE who want to keep a connection to their old home town. If that's your intention, then one would vote "back home".  If your choice is to immerse yourself in a new community, then you choose.....

whp
[ Parent ]
Republicans aren't pro-choice n/t (4.00 / 1)

[ Parent ]
Rep Steve Lindsey (4.00 / 1)
from Keene. Should encourage rather than discourage people from staying. We benefit when students stay in the state.  
It's Frightening (4.00 / 2)
Rep. Sorg and his supporters can only be described as outlaws. The Constitution of the United States? State and federal court rulings? Ignore them. They know what they want and the law be damned.

Thanks to those who are in Concord today to defend the right to vote and especially to Reps. Cote and Pierce for their work.

Rep Horrigan (4.00 / 2)
UNH in his district. Urging committee to kill bill. "O'Brien is a good man." Goes into O'Brien's comments to 912 group.

Denying right to vote unconstitutional, against law, wrong. Talks about his mother being denied the right to vote b/c of residency laws.

Back to O'Brien remarks.

Describing low voter turn out at local elections and deliberative sessions.  

Tweets (4.00 / 3)
Kaili is doing some tweets #votingrights

Hope >> Fear





Create a free Blue Hampshire account and join the conversation.
Rep St Cyr (0.00 / 0)
passionately against HB 176. Rep Pierce asks about college students leaving NH. Rep St Cyr says we lose many young people to other states.
Rep Susan Smith (0.00 / 0)
representing Plymouth against bill.
Rep Baldassaro (0.00 / 0)
in favor of bill. If we let college students vote, we're supporting frauding the IRS.

Saying if parents claim college kids as dependents, kids shouldn't vote in college towns.

Rep Pierce cites tax code and says parent is not committing tax fraud if they claim a student as a dependent.  

Patricia Little , City Clerk (4.00 / 1)
of Keene. Students can choose to register in their hometown and at their college address. Appreciates that state law is now in sync with court cases.

Changing law will make it moire difficult. Do voter registration drives on campus. Facilitate registration for NH students from other towns.

Citing election statistics. Fewer #s of students vote than others. "Loss of local control not supported by statistics."

Keene State College population counted in representation for Keene. Unfair to not extend benefit to students.

Gotta go (4.00 / 1)
live stream here

There will be other reports later.

This bill has to be killed.

Rep. Steve Vaillancourt (4.00 / 3)
Excellent statement in opposition that cut to the chase: He left Vermont to go to Plymouth Statge and knew he was never going bac, so he voted in New Hampshire. The bill wouldn't tell people where they can live, but it would tell them where they can vote - and that's wrong.

If there's fraud, clean it up, but let people vote where they want to live.

Go Steve (0.00 / 0)
Excellent testimony by Rep. Vaillancourt!
[ Parent ]
Hanover Town Manager Julia Griffin (0.00 / 0)
In opposition to the bill. In response to Rep. Pierce's question: "I disagree that [Dartmouth students} are in any way disruptive" and contribute greatly to the community.

NOTE: Speakers: Get close to the mic. Difficult to pick up the audio on the State House feed.

Carlotta Pini, town administrator, Rindge. (0.00 / 0)
Franklin Pierce is an important part of the community, but the university can't vote - the students can.

Students make a significant contribution to town and economy and live in town for four years. Average non-student resident stays in a home for seven years.

Position of the Rindge Board of Selectmen: The law is bad for the town and bad for the state. Students ought to have the right to vote.

Garth Corriveau, Manchester alderman and BHer (4.00 / 3)
Says bill is a losah - but in an erudite and lawyerly way - and submits written testimony to clear way for student testimony.
Plymouth State students (and faculty) (0.00 / 0)
Seem to be getting into a stretch of PSU students as well as a faculty member. Unable to catch the name of a woman who presented a link to an on-line petition with nearly 900 names - presumably PSU students? - and gave an excellent statement in opposition.
Keene State & Dartmouth Heard From (0.00 / 0)
Lauren Heckler, Keene State, in opposition.
Outlines pro-voting activism at Keene, asks committee to "reconnect with college students" by opposing bills.

Chelsea Stuart, Dartmouth, off-campus resident. "My parents live in Maryland. I'm a member of the Hanover community." Tells of her involvement in a community mentoring program that serves the Upper Valley. "To suggest we're just passing through, is ignoring our involvement in the community. I live here."

Jeremy Kauffman, pres., College Dems of NH (0.00 / 0)
Dartmouth College student, notes College Dems and College Libertarians are in alliance in opposition to the bills.

Ignores chairman Bates' appeal to submit written statements and briefly summarize - but, hey, people have been waiting since lunchtime and it's now 5:30!

Passing the Torch... (0.00 / 0)
I've got a class to teach. If anyone in Concord has a Blackberry, keep this going. Or monitor on line.

An impressive and well-prepared group of students is coming up.

Mr. Ahern (0.00 / 0)
For the bill. Brought several letters from voters opposing the bill. Thinks students should take responsibility and vote absentee.
[ Parent ]
Mason Cole-sophomore Dartmouth College. (0.00 / 0)
Student very involved in the Dartmouth Community. More involved in NH politics then Politics in previous home state.  
[ Parent ]
Rick Perault- Rochester (0.00 / 0)
Bill does not deny the right to vote. There needs to be proof that people are actual residents of the state. These proofs would not be burdensome. Students should stay involved in politics, but follow some simple rules.
Hannah Hays- Keane State College (0.00 / 0)
Helped students get involved with local community. Many students want to stay in these communities, and would like to stay in these communities. NH Students well informed on local issues.
[ Parent ]
Dorothy England- Keene State (opposed) (0.00 / 0)
Getting rid of same day registration makes voting less of a group activity, less easy.
[ Parent ]
I'm done live blogging (0.00 / 0)
here is the live link, for anyone who wants to carry on the blogging.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.u...

[ Parent ]
O'Brien disses students rallying before hearing (0.00 / 0)
Didn't want to distract from the live blogging of the hearing itself, so video link is here instead.

These students are doing a great job of making the case for their enthusiasm to participate in NH civic life - and the civic responsibilities that go with it. Good testimony coming out today.

little camera girl

Zandra Rice Hawkins (Granite State Progress)

Coalition of NH Taxpayers Now Testifying in Favor of Bill (0.00 / 0)
Says it's very easy to find out your domicile, just look at your driver's license. Says people come from out of state vote, and then un-register the next day.

Says he has a list of students who registered to vote and then un-registered.

Seems to think the only legitimate proof of domicile is your driver's license.  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Rep. Pierce says HB 176 creates a test for certain voters-doesn't that create 2 different classes of people? (0.00 / 0)
The NH Taxpayers guy doesn't answer the question. Rep. Pierce repeats the question.

NH Taxpayers guy says this bill does not create a test, this is simply a requirement.

He repeats the assertion that people come to the state on Election Day for the purposes of voting.

He says "we need to explain to these guys [the students] we're not trying to take their vote.  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Rep. DeLemus asks, "I understand that right now there is no requirement to prove you are a resident" (0.00 / 0)
Delemus asks, "so as the system is now, can I vote in more than one place on Election Day?"

NH Taxpayers Guy (who I realize now is Ed Naile) says yes, that can happen because there is no photo ID.  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

voting in more than one place (0.00 / 0)
If you vote in more than one place in NH on election day under the same identity, they will catch you automatically.  This might not happen after election day, however.  There are some efforts to put the database online, but there are some technical issues which make that less than 100% practical.

If you vote in more than 2 states under the same identity you will also be caught automatically- if that state has a reciprocity agreement with NH.  Almost all states do.

If you vote under a real identity and a fake identity, you run the risk of the fake identity being outed as a fake.  Elections officials are trained to catch them.  

If you vote as yourself and as someone else who is already registered, you run the risk of that other person showing up.  You also run the risk of running into a poll worker who knows you and/or the individual you are impersonating.  That could also happen if you register at the polls as a real local resident who isn't yourself.

All of the violations I just mentioned are felonies punishable by up to 7 years in prison.  

[ Parent ]
The check isn't in the database. (4.00 / 1)
The check is in the local poll workers and the line of other voters.

"YOU'RE not Fred Jones. He's my mechanic."

[ Parent ]
Ed Naile is lying. (4.00 / 2)
I'm a poll worker. I resent his lies.

Let him try in my ward.

[ Parent ]
David Bates Just Asked the Committee to "Hold questions for Ed Naile" (0.00 / 0)
because they will hear from him again at a later time.

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR
why? (0.00 / 0)
I have just one question: WHY? WHY? WHY? (That's one question repeated 3x for emphasis.)  Ed Naille is a crashing bore, barely even worth listening to once.
[ Parent ]
Because (0.00 / 0)
for these guys, he's a hero.  And he has the network that keeps them all informed, so I hear.  
[ Parent ]
Student Asks, (0.00 / 0)
"What is the difference between a student who lives here for four years and someone who moves here but then leaves after a year?"

Same student moved here to attend UNH law and bought a car in Nashua, changed her license, but has not registered to vote yet, fears that if this bill passes she would not be able to register to vote.


"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Dan Fournier, UNH Student (0.00 / 0)
Shares with the Committee the fact that the Voting Rights Act of 1964 states that if state wants to substantially change its voting requirements, they need to clear it w/ the federal Dept. of Justice. Asks if the committee has made contact with the DOJ yet.

Connects voting rights in NH to the many other liberties we enjoy here in NH that other people in other states don't have, such as marriage equality.

Says he doesn't want to get too partisan, but asks why it is that every time the Republican party gets into power, they say they want to get rid of big gov't, get big brother of their lives, but then they try to take people's rights away.

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Republican member of committee just chastised Dan Fournier (0.00 / 0)
"for bringing partisanship into this debate and painting us all with a broad brush." Says those kind of comments are not helpful. Mr. Fournier responds by saying that haven't college students been painted with a broad brush?

David Bates then pigpiles on an 18 year old student who is exercising his right to speak @ a public hearing by saying that "we are not holding a public hearing on the comments made by Speaker O'Brien".  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

The Speaker's comments are only important if they relate to the topic (4.00 / 1)
Oh, wait, that's right. His comments were directly related to this legislation.

little camera girl

Zandra Rice Hawkins (Granite State Progress)

[ Parent ]
Reps on the committee are criticizing a member of the public... (4.00 / 3)

... who is testifying?  And the chair of the committee joins the attack? Unbelievable.

Those on this board who have been state reps know you never do that. I've sat through hours of tedium as uninformed and misinformed people droned on about various bills, or lobbyists with agendas  spun away for their employers. All you can do his sit there politely and at the end thank them for their efforts. Its part of the package that goes with being a rep.  

[ Parent ]
But these are not the servants of the people (0.00 / 0)
as you were, these are the overlords.  They were elected to rule, not represent.  Did you miss the memo, Mike?
[ Parent ]
Shawn Jasper (4.00 / 1)
was criticizing the student for having just accused Republicans of trying to take away his rights (apparently -- I wasn't listening to the student's testimony just then -- sorry) .

I can't fault him on this: he'd already sat there for probably four and a half hours hearing testimony on a bill he didn't like, sponsored by exactly one person, whom he'd already had a testy exchange with, and now some kid was coming along and flat-out asserting that Republicans were one undifferentiated mass of hostility to voting rights. Jasper was restrained but forceful in making clear that the great majority of the people on the committee were Republicans who had stayed there for hours and listened to every person giving testimony and that he was wrong to assume that they had already made their minds up in favor of the bill. The kid had a very good point in his response -- that hadn't they been painted with a broad brush as well by this bill? -- but it was sadly unaccompanied by either an apology or a complete dropping of attitude, and so failed to gain his point the attention it merited.

I'll also second Paul Twomey's observations here.

[ Parent ]
Peter Bailey, Against the Bill (0.00 / 0)
Says the bill is so badly written that it is ridiculous. States the bill says anyone who ever matriculates at a school in NH will forever be considered domiciled in the place they lived before matriculation.

Also states that the segment of the bill that deals with people giving up elected office if they move, that means that if they so much as move across the street, they will have given up that office.  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Student asks committee the question: (4.00 / 1)
"I grew up in Greenland, go to school in Plymouth, and in my sophomore year my parents moved to Alton, so now I technically live in Alton. So does this mean I can only vote in Greenland?"

Surprise, no one on the committee could answer the question.

She also recalled a previous election she voted in where people at the polls were telling college students they would be arrested if they voted.

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Philosophy Student, Opposes Bill (0.00 / 0)
Addresses the discussion about driver's licenses, saying that even if a college student gets a driver's license in NH, they still won't be allowed to vote because the wording of the bill says that a student is considered to be domiciled in the town they lived in prior to matriculation.  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR
Melissa Bernardin, America Votes (4.00 / 4)
Bill is in direct contrast to the NH civic culture and participation.

Every 4 years NH tells the rest of the nation that we are the best state to hold the 1st primary because of our civic and political engagement. How can we make that argument if we are trying to discourage certain people from voting.

Says a lot of people have talked about domicile, but this bill strictly prohibits a student from establishing domicile, with no exceptions even if a student gets a driver's license, etc.  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Claire Ebel, NH ACLU (4.00 / 2)
Says never in her years as ED of ACLU has she seen this committee split on party lines to deny voting rights.

Says this bill is unconstitutional under both the federal and NH constitution.  

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

Committee gets testy with NH's "junior senator" Chris Booth (0.00 / 0)
Among other things, Chris Booth recommends expanding the Cog Railway to the moon.

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR
Paul Twomey, last testimony of the night (4.00 / 1)
Submits testimony from the Brennan Center for Justice. Their conclusion is that this bill is unconstitutionally and would be the most restrictive voting law in the country.

Says Const. law is pretty simple: you have to treat people equally.

This law sets a different test for students, military, and people in nursing homes.

Different test for residency for driver's licenses than there is for voting or in state tuition. Says the Neuberger case specifically prohibits that driver's license test for use in determining voting eligibility. Says a student who comes to NH is prohibited from getting a license b/c the test for getting a license is intent to stay in a state indefinitely.

Hearing Closed.

"We now know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." - FDR

I hope Paul doesn't think the fact this bill... (0.00 / 0)

... is unconstitutional on its face is going to deter these zealots. They've proven this is not something they care all that deeply about on too many occasions already this year. Besides, they have Danny Itse's august Constitutional Review committee to bless their votes and make them legit, don't they?
[ Parent ]
It wont deter the zealots, but there are a number of GOP reps. on the election committee who are concerned with the constitutional problems with this bill. (4.00 / 2)
Rep. Jasper for example seemed to make it pretty clear that he thinks this is unconstitutional and I dont expect him to vote for it. At least two libertarians elected as Republicans testified against the bill. On the other hand, the sponsor, Rep.Sorg is way beyond the edge and will listen to nothing other than the inner voice telling him that the Republic on New Hampshire need not obey the federal constitution, and he shares that delusion with a number of others.

I really don't know what the final vote will be , but it wouldn't shock me if the bill died. (and three weeks ago , I rated its chances of passage at 100%).

For what it's worth, I think Rep. Bates (with whom I probably agree on nothing)is very fair and even handed in the way that he conducts the hearings of the Election Law Committee. He intervened a couple of times when people were going on directly at O'Brien, but he also let reams of criticism of O'Brien pass without a comment. I think at times (and only a couple of isolated times)he was uncomfortable with the personal tone of the comments and he intervened. Having attended every meeting of the election committee, I am reasonably sure he would have done the same if someone had directed the same type of personal comments at a democrat like Rep. David Pierce for example. What I see in the election committee in terms of civility to minority members and the public is significantly different than much of what is said to go on in other committees.

"But, in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." Si se puede. Yes we can.  

[ Parent ]
I was going to speak against the bill... (0.00 / 0)
And submitted a card, but the delays combined with 2 of my own bills having subcommittee meetings meant that I missed this after waiting around for an hour or so.  Thanks to those who live blogged.

The 'problems' (and I quote that to avoid entering that argument entirely) solved by this bill are outweighed by the problems created by it.

I don't see this making much headway, too many Reps opposed.

BH's token Republican / Libertarian / TeaPartier / Free Stater, courtesy of a Federal Affirmative Action grant, despite many of his comments being marked down and hidden.

[ Parent ]
Nice Article in the Sentinel (4.00 / 3)
It would have been sweet if N.H. Rep. Gregory Sorg and House Speaker William O'Brien had been in the Lantern Room inside Keene State College's Young Student Center late Wednesday night.

They would have seen a bevy of students finalizing details of today's trip to the Statehouse in Concord. They would have seen them working feverishly and passionately under dozens of international flags that give the room its alternative name - the flag room.

http://www.sentinelsource.com/...

Hope >> Fear





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thanks everyone! (4.00 / 2)
for blogging the hearing!  Very informative!

whp
This was fantastic work (0.00 / 0)
on the part of all the Hampsters, new and old.  Thank you!
Was on a plane to a YDA summit in Nevada when this was going on (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for the liveblog, everyone.

--
Hope > Anarch-tea
Twitter: @DougLindner
HB 176 Live Blog | 66 comments

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