Gregg: It's Your Fault You Don't Have Health Insurance

What he meant to say: (4.00 / 4)

Isn't there a way to just get rid of poor people?  

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by: FrankLloydMike @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 07:10:52 AM CDT

They Don't See The "Poor" (0.00 / 0)

Some people just don't see the "poor."  They cannot relate.  They have had money for so long, or been in a position or job where they have always had health coverage, that they can't relate to those of us who live paycheck to paycheck.  

Judd Gregg has never had to worry about making a payment for anything.  He and his family always had a checkbook with a positive balance.  He was born into wealth, and has never been lacking for anything material.  He hasn't had to try to make a living.  

He's not the only one to not quite "feel" the problems of those who don't have funds easily availiable for the luxury of health care.  I remember a couple of months attending the State Senate public hearing on the resolution to take a position in favor of a single-payer health care plan.  One Senator insisted that it was important to have a "co-pay" component to any health care plan.  She believed that everyone should pay something.  

During my testimony, I pointed out that even a co-pay of $10.00 for drugs, or more for other services, limits access to health care.  Many of us don't have that extra $10.00 to be able to pay on a given week.  To the Judd Greggs of the world, that co-pay means nothing.  To many of the rest of us, that co-pay may mean delaying a doctor's visit for a month, or having to cut your prescription pills in half to make them go longer.  

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by: Rep. Jim Splaine @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 07:29:13 AM CDT

Striking a balance (0.00 / 0)

You shouldn't simply give away access to health care.

Some level of co-pay and even deductibles will help curb abuses that would overwhelm providers with workload. If our health care systems bloat from folks running to the free doctor over every little thing, a triage system will be put in place to assess medical priorities.

That is exactly the type of "crowded clinic" scene that is being used by fearmongering reform opponents.

Pulling off the bandaid stings. Having it put on needs to sting a little too.

Ya see, some folks would rather set aside their "Dunkin' Donuts" money or buy a slightly smaller plasma TV, so they can put that money where it matters. Like, I dunno, their family's health.

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 07:51:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What Level "Co-Pay?" (0.00 / 0)

Should  that co-pay be $50.00 for a doctor's visit?   $50.00 for a Judd Gregg is pocket change.  $50.00 for many of us means we just can't afford to go to the doctor.  For many of our seniors living on $800-a-month social security, who also have rent, food, heating, and water bills, a $10.00 co-pay for one drug prescription means making a choice between heat and health.  That $10.00 co-pay might be considered nothing more than just an irritant to someone else who just needs to write a quick check.  

It's the classic "haves" and "haves not," and when it comes to basic health care America should be able to find a way to provide it.  

It's not a matter of the sting of a bandaid.  It's about being able to afford that bandaid in the first place.  We shouldn't be reducing the line in the clinic based on ability to pay, and that's exactly what co-pay at any level does.  Some people can't afford a dollar; should they be denied?  

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by: Rep. Jim Splaine @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 08:24:41 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Classic "Heat or Health" meme (0.00 / 0)

You go right for the tear jerker, don't ya?

As true, and sad, as those stories are, I'd love to show you the Cadillac Escalades and Lexus Coupes parked outside the housing projects.

Your "haves" and "haves not" arguement is fatally flawed. For the most part, there are two classes that pilfer the American dream, the rich and the poor.

The middle class takes it on the chin, every day!

I have been on welfare, Jim. Once I got back on my feet, I stayed there. So far.

The social safety net has become a hammock for a number of folks. Please let's not further intergrate their theft into our health care system.

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 09:11:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whoa Jack boy! (4.00 / 4)

I grew up on welfare and that's my mama (and me)you're talking about. You're living in a dream world if you think that ethics are determined by social class. There are thieves, bums, and heroes everywhere and nowhere.

Classism-- the last bias that dare speaketh its name?

"But, in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." Si se puede. Yes we can.  

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by: Paul Twomey @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 12:19:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sure, but (0.00 / 0)

It's more complex than that. People steal for thrills or for need -- more often need is my guess. I was unemployed for a while, fortunately before my daughter came along. If it happened now (and my support network wasn't coming through, which they did last time), I wouldn't hesitate to snatch some bread from Stop & Shop.

Besides, the company I work for "steals" (overcharges) like you wouldn't believe, thereby elminating my need to do so.

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by: JimC @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 12:41:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Broad Brush (0.00 / 0)

You are exactly right, Paul.

In short sentences, it is hard to make a point without a sloppy hand. I do think the middle class gets hosed, but I am aware of institutional poverty and how folks get trapped.

I ate my share of spaghetti and butter dinners, living in a trailer next to Durgin's bridge. After getting out of the Army, trying to get through college, both my kids where born on MassHealth.

In Lowell, we could easily eliminate many from the state dole, if we enforced the eligiblity laws to their letter. More if we follwed their intent. Sad as it sounds, such an action would be useless, as many of the folks would find their way back, rather than pick themselves up. For a variety of reasons.

Poliicy is a lump sum proposition. People are on a case by case basis.


www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 12:43:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

what a load of codswallop (0.00 / 0)

Seein' as how there's a 60 month lifetime limit on TANF in NH, it's unlikely that recipients are buying Lexuses.

This comes right out of the Ronald Reagan "welfare queen" playbook.

When I found myself alone, with an infant, and no support system I spent a brief time as a welfare recipient 30 years ago. I didn't even have a car, never mind a Lexus. I barely had enough money to live on.

I guess the difference is, I remember being desperately poor, and how it felt. No one - NO ONE pulls themselves up by their bootstraps, as the neocons would have us believe. Anyone who gets out of poverty had a hand along the way. I know I did.  

member of the professional left  

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by: susanthe @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 09:21:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Charity begins at home (0.00 / 0)

Earlier I've said:
All I'm saying is that real world counter arguements to the position that health care should be free to the poor exist. & Poliicy is a lump sum proposition. People are on a case by case basis.

The "welfare queen" is not a complete fabrication to the degree that Bill Clinton to action against abuses.

I'm not sure if you think you can herd me in to some neat little "neocon" box. I am closer to them than Kucinich, but there are miles between us. Feel free, your traction is waning here anyways.

As far as welfare reform goes, I can say that we try. At this moment, there is a women living as guests in our home with her 12 and 1-1/2 year old kids. Two weeks ago, they became homeless due to fire. As the oldest boy is best friends with my daughter Tristyn, we offered to help them get started again. The mother has refused welfare and seeks to do what she can on her own. That is a position of character that I find worthy of support. Support to the degree that they now reside here.

Now, some folks would rather write a check or pay some extra taxes to banish the burden of such up close and personal charity. I would like to as well, for the most part. But these days, I am putting our money where our mouths are.

These issues are not academic to me. I don't suffer any liberal guilt. We are in the thick of it, so spare me the lecture with the persistent snyde inuendo.

PS. Anyone who wants to give this woman some $$ can shoot me an e-mail. It isn't easy coming up with first and last rent.

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 12:37:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

newsflash bunky (0.00 / 0)

I'm not Dennis Kucinich. You take some kind of bizarre childish glee in throwing him at me, as if I am responsible for him somehow, since I worked for him.

I'm not sorry I did. Dennis Kucinich believes in peace. He would not be committing this country to more, biggger war. He wouldn't be spending nearly a billion dollars on building a palatial new embassy in Afghanistan, he wouldn't be siding with those who enabled torture, and he sure as hell wouldn't be helping them cover it up. He also wouldn't be afraid to let the American people know who is visiting the White House.

I'm not ashamed of the candidate I worked for - the candidate I voted for. I didn't vote for a pretty canvas that seems to be covering some unattractive pentimento - so I don't have any buyers remorse.

Non liberals don't feel liberal guilt. Your position isn't unique or dazzling - it's the standard issue Randian "I got mine."

Oh, and don't tell me what to do, Jack. Go bluster at someone who might be intimidated.  

member of the professional left  

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by: susanthe @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 17:13:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The sound of reality setting in - divisive or uniting? (0.00 / 0)

But the "welfare queen" is a fabrication. Much like the spitting on returning soldiers and the farmers losing their farms do to estate taxes. In a number of these instances, it turns out that it was all made up. Sometimes, someone knows someone who whatever. A responsible search for the facts requires that a generality be supported by more than belief that somewhere someone must certainly be behaving like something that I hate. All those Reagan instances were proven to have been gross exagerations when they weren't just plain made up. So quit with the rabble rousing.

Our government cannot act on the basis of some one person who might have killed a police officer, who might not have done that if there were the death penalty. That is the nature of proof. If you would like to match your list of welfare queens with my list of tenants who worked hard and did all the other things you admire over a period of ten years in my eleven apartments during the seventies, that's one thing. I probably can't dig up the people that I knew that had other buildings but their experience was like mine, not yours. Otherwise, I can't think of how you can with a straight face keep producing these perjorative assertions. I was taught and absorbed the same stuff you produce. By osmosis I sucked it in, as did you. It is time to jettison stuff just plain not supported by facts. I am not particularly worried about you as it seems to me that when it comes down to it you do the same kind of community building stuff that I did. The opposition, those dreaded neocons, to which you refer, don't do this. They don't volunteer. They look at your talk and say, "see, they don't even believe that crap." It is part of the excuse they use to support their belief that life should be ugly so that the scum bags on the bottom will be forced off of their chaise lounges, to put down the bon bons and get to appreciate just how ugly life "really" is. It is just a cop out to relieve the enormous guilt they would have for their lazy greedy lifestyle. This trashing in general ethnic, religious, economic or other groupings must stop. It is the divisiveness that keeps us all down.

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by: xteeth @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 07:31:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Everyday (0.00 / 0)

Conservative talking points walk the face of this earth. To deny it is to be divorced from reality. The swing voters carefully measure what they see vs. the rhetoric spouted by the party and the activists.

I'll concede that many of those talking points are "mountains made from molehills." However, there are vast regional differences, so what you see here ma ring false, but somewhere else, it may have much more traction.

Let's take immigration reform. We don't see alot of Mexicans stannding in the corner of the Home Depot parking lot waiting to hop in the back of a pickup for a days wage. That imagery is not a hoax, it is common place in the South/Southwest. This allows GOoPers to create very vivid arguements about "illegals taking our jobs" that gain traction with the politically ambivalent.

I'm not trying to break down existing memes for supporting social programs nor am I trying to burnish conservative talking points.

In my book, "reality does have a well known liberal bias." But nothing is 100%. There is always enough proof to create a handhold for political spin.


www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 09:44:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Guess I'm divorced from reality then. (0.00 / 0)

Conservatives walk the face of the earth. Their unsupportable, mean spirited talking points merely come out of their mouths and either we can slap them down or fall under their spell. As I have said, over and over, I hear the echoes in my head. That's why they work. I have over and over heard that Puerto Ricans receive $20,000 and a 7-11 franchise when they get off the boat. My wife and I spent (ruined) one whole evening party with a bunch of real estate salespersons, hearing this repeated by person after person in Woburn some years back.

It is part of the "Other" meme. For me it was motorcycles and long hair, for others - homophobia, Jews using the blood of children in Passover rituals, Catholics kidnapping children to baptize them (woops, they actually did that in Woburn), Haitian voodoo rituals, eating mercury, then it moved on to razor blades in apples for Halloween, AIDS needles taped to gas station fill nozzles, holy (with holes) condoms shipped to Africa, punishing their babies by dipping them in boiling water, it's not part of reality, it is part of paranoia. There is a very simple test - do you eat babies when you're feeling low? Well, then, neither does anyone else except villains in movies and the criminally insane.

I can't (won't) talk about Home Depot parking lots in San Jose or rather, I won't because it is not something that I know and have experienced, though I bet I have seen it on TV as much as you have. I used to worry about the firemen in Waltham taking my jobs because I kept getting underbid for construction jobs, because they all had jobs as firemen and did construction on the side and didn't have to support their families from this alone. Is this "stealing jobs?" or is this annoyance and paranoia at an economic system that has all sorts of unfairness built in?

I reject your book as you can see and I think you would as well if you sat down and tried to fill in the names and addresses of all those that you know that do these things. You don't, they don't and it is incredibly harmful for you to suppose that they do. It takes a while but you can damp down those echoes as I have (for the most part).

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by: xteeth @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 10:49:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The United Council on Welfare Fraud (UCOWF) (0.00 / 0)

I tried the anecdotal. Now I'm keeping it real:

The United Council on Welfare Fraud (UCOWF) is an organization of investigators, administrators, prosecutors, eligibility workers, and claims writers from local, state and federal agencies from the United States and Canada who have combined their efforts to fight fraud, waste, and abuse in social service programs.  It is organized and operates under a strict set of By-Laws created during UCOWF's establishment and implemented a Code of Ethics for all members.

For more than 30 years the United Council on Welfare Fraud has been active in preventing, detecting, eliminating and prosecuting welfare fraud in its many forms. UCOWF has been instrumental in the recovery of taxpayer monies lost through waste, fraud, and abuse in government programs designed to aid the needy. UCOWF's membership currently consists of welfare investigators, administrators, and recovery specialists, as well as fraud prosecutors from 47 states, the District of Columbia and 7 Canadian provinces, establishing a professional network from Hawaii to Newfoundland.

The primary purpose of our organization has always been the promotion of effective and efficient administration of public welfare. As the direction and manner of providing assistance to the needy have changed over the years, our members have consistently been the first to encounter and address the program integrity aspects inherent in those changes; for despite how well-intentioned and generous a program may be in aiding people truly in need, there will always be those who will try to capitalize on opportunities and cheat the system.

Our active, experienced, and diverse membership provides a wealth of knowledge, information, and support for the professional fraud investigator. We maintain a large library of training resources which are available to our members for career enhancement and professional growth. In addition, we sponsor the most widely recognized certification program for welfare fraud investigators in the United States.

As our membership grows and UCOWF moves confidently into the 21st century, we are committed to assisting our members with their professional advancement by providing desirable and effective training programs and self-study resources. We are equally committed to assisting the public through the continued vigilance of the Public Assistance programs and the vigorous prosecution of those attempting to defraud our society.

Click HERE to find out why you should join UCOWF.

BTW, Damn those firemen. And the cops out on disability that collect a check while they flip real estate.

All sots of welfare out there. :v(

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 13:56:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'll look into this. (0.00 / 0)

I think that it is very much like the pursuit of voter fraud, another conservative titalating faux issue. They spend millions trying to nail Acorn etc. and all they come up with is some hopeless little squirt sticking a knife into the tires of some feeble Republicanic van. Are there some cheats? Of course. But if you are going to base governmental policy on bull shit this is as good a place to start as any. If you would take all the welfare cheats in history, my guess is that that wouldn't account for the scuz under Bernie Madoff's little finger nail. Welfare has been gone for twenty years. TANF is pathetic in size. Still, I'll not give up on this. Funny that if you google ucowf it goes on for pages quoting their stated goals in identical language. Much like the Heritage Foundation, Hoover Institute, American Enterprise Institute. May take some time.

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by: xteeth @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 17:25:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

O' Canada (0.00 / 0)

When I saw the Canucks involved, I took it more seriously.

from local, state and federal agencies from the United States and Canada

Take whatever time you need. I'll say again, I'm not trying to break down existing memes for supporting social programs nor am I trying to burnish conservative talking points.


www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 17:44:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Now it is a couple of hours (0.00 / 0)

I can tell you after looking at page 16 out of more than a thousand. I am suckered by you into proving the negative. They are determined to be part of the Christian Right. Supported by the Moral Majority, the Christian Voice, and the Religious Rountable. They don't provide anything other than a request for funds. That's bull shit. If they had any statistics other than the echoes in your head they would be on the front page not hunting around in the gray world of inuendo. You need to prove that my program (it's not mine but I think it is a remarkably positive effort on the part of government to provide a safety net) is often or even frequently used to cheat and steal. When compared with Madoff, Cheney, Abramoff I assert that you are just jacking me off. So I say, beat down those awful echoes in your head or come up with something other than bull shit organisations with no statistics supported by people with whom you wouldn't even go have a beer. I'm through with this. I have offerred names and addresses and all you have to offer is a waste of my time. Enjoy your paranoia. The Republicanics will love you. Bye

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by: xteeth @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 18:15:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry if I am reading more into this than you meant to put there. (4.00 / 1)

I don't get this. It sounds as though you (Jack) don't think that health care is paid for. Who is giving it away? I would like some statistics other than the ones I have which indicate that in Canada, France, Britain etc. that "poor" people don't immediately rush to the health care store for frivalous reasons. Everyone does not immediately request leave from their work so that they can go to the south of France for some R&R to cure their hang nails. That is negative thinking that often accompanies conservative memes. It just isn't true. It is hard for me as well to jettison all the Republicanic stuff from Reagan about the fat black women lying back on chaise lounges and eating bon bons when they aren't out driving their Welfare caddilacs but that is Hobbes not Rouseau. I can remember greatly fearing that poor people would figure out how to vote themselves money during the Johnson Great Society but what actually turns out to be the case is that people like to work and support themselves and be responsible members of society. Sure there are outliers but they are nothing when compared to what happens when you allow the greed merchants to run Enron, World Com, Halliburton etc. Welfare cheats aren't a blip on that radar. Neither would health cheats. Adapting a mechanism to get people more healthy would more than make up for the few that claim disability while going skiing. That's not balance - that's the real (and Democratic) vision of humanity. We don't need to worry about creating stings - life comes with enough of them even for the rich.

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by: xteeth @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 08:30:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Welfare Arguement (0.00 / 0)

When the founders scribbled, "All men are created equal", the middle class got shafted.

The ideal is that we, Americans, get to maximize our potential. The equallity stems fron equal opportunity, not equal ability. The ideal assumes that all are motivated to acheive our potential.

Two easy to spot flaws:

A chunk of the "rich" do everything in their power to consolidate their opportunities. And their power is magnified by their wealth status.

A chunk of the "poor" are perfectly content being wards of the state. They, like lawyers, know all the ins and outs of the system. They avoid marraige, if it inhibits their welfare status. They hide ownership of high value goods, ect.

It is the "play by the rules" middle class working stiff that carries this world on his/hers back.

That said, I frequently defend welfare by making, what I call, the Brasil arguement. If you don't pay the "less fortunate" to stay off the streets, they will be out hunting to survive.

I'm going to Brasil next summer. Wanna come?

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 09:24:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'll never walk a mile in your combat boots no matter what I would like. (0.00 / 0)

This is still way too negative for me. I just never saw "the poor" doing anything much adaptive at all. All this stuff about having babies to get on welfare, being wards of the state, hiding ownership etc. just doesn't fit in with what I saw. It is in my psyche as yours but I just didn't see it and believe that it is just in my head. There is so much struggle just to stay alive when you are poor that there is neither ability nor inclination to the Machivellian in which you seem to believe. I didn't see any "perfectly content" at all. It was a constant battle because the car got towed, the boy friend got arrested, the baby is sick, the apartment was broken into, drugs are too expensive, I don't look like a TV star no matter how many of the beauty products I use that I see on TV.

I feel about this much like I did when I listened to the cops testifying against the repeal of the death penalty and its deterrent effect. If they (the cops) were in the position of the "perp" they would be making all kinds of calculations about what would happen if they shot a cop or a prison guard. But that is exactly the point, they are not in that position. People in that position are scared to death, their whole world is out of control, no rational set of arguments could ever make it seem that robbing a convenience store is a good calculated investiture of time and energy. It is not how they think, if and when there is any thinking done at all.

Health care is much the same in my view. Don't do it or not do it because of what you think might be good for you if you were in some other situation. You can't know. Do what is good for society. It is clear that a healthy work force is good individually, collectively and bonus upon bonus, it is cheaper than what we do now. I am convinced that doing good stuff has good results just in and of itself. All the strum and drang about conditioning the atypical person just doesn't matter.

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by: xteeth @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 16:20:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm not saying your wrong (0.00 / 0)

I have seen these things too.

I don't casually visit the 'hood or go there on a mission. I live in the 'hood.

I've seen the folks, in over their heads and powerless to a degree. I've also see the predators that make the world work for them because they can. They exploit the system because they are smart and capable.

I've meet drug dealers that could be CEOs. Your charity and humanity is getting played.

Look, we aren't going to neatly encapsulate the entire urban blight condition or poverty, as a whole, on BH. All I'm saying is that real world counter arguements to the position that health care should be free to the poor exist.

I like to know my enemy.

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 16:35:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

(h/t JBB) (0.00 / 0)

I know you're inner editor is screaming at me right now.

My brain doesn't see it, as I go along. It sees fine after I click POST.

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 16:38:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

your write n/t (0.00 / 0)

6 days till election day
Have you knocked on doors today? Have you made calls ? Have you talked to your neighbors ?  

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by: JonnyBBad @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 16:44:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

drug dealers are businessmen (4.00 / 1)

Drug dealers are businessmen, who happen to sell an illegal product.  When alcohol was illegal, the liquor trade was every bit as sleazy as the pot or cocaine trade.  

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Thanks for all the fish

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by: TimothyHorrigan @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 09:31:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Point taken (0.00 / 0)

I think the rush to the doctor, which would certainly occur because so many people neglect themselves now, would be a short-term phenomenon. After a year or so, care would normalize.

One question is, if we achieve free care, how do we motivate things like drug development? The drug research/development/approval cycle is at least five years and often closer to 10. Put another way, how do we achieve that and still have an FDA with teeth?

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by: JimC @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 08:48:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry for the retrospective - only example I have. (0.00 / 0)

I was in graduate school once upon a time - when dinosaurs and humans shared the earth. When I think back to the situation and those I knew there, then, I don't remember anything but idealism.

(Woops, first lie). I was in experimental psychology and no one at the University of Iowa at that time gave a good solid crap about humans and what everyone would like to think psychology ought to be about. We worked on learning and motivation using animals - and I do appologize to PETA for what I did. Only at grant time was the human interest even involved. A big joke was about O. Hobart Mowrer studying "Hope in Rats" at grant time. Don't get me started about Harry Harlow or Kellogg at Illinois. That change of focus didn't affect what we did in the lab though which is my point.

At that point (graduate school) we were fanatics about trying to figure things out. I think that is still true of medical people etc. it only changes when the economic pressures and attraction of later years occurs.

We do know that more than half of drug development is done in Universities and is publicly funded that will continue and be expanded. In general the stuff that the drug companies do is create copies of their competitors products and minor variations in their profitable products so as to extend the patent life. That is not drug development in the sense that I think you mean it. The harm is well documented. Just look into the phony statins prevent heart attacks stuff that accounts for about half of drug company products and has been ongoing for twenty years. It is just plain false.

Back to Jack. In my head, I have those same worries about cheating. It is part of our generation, if not all generations, to be stuck with falsehoods echoing around in the part of our brains where we would like wisdom and insights to reign supreme. Fighting those thoughts is the most human thing that I think I do. I can't tell you how queasy homosexuality and race relations make me. I am horribly embarassed but somewhere down in my lizard brain those neanderthal notions lie in wait for me to open my mouth or typewriter. All the appologizing etc. just doesn't cut it. I fight it as much as I can but that is the nature of habits. The conditioning is never going to completely extinguish, and it recovers automatically.

Those fears about cheats are part of that stuff. Whenever I think about, for instance, the blacks I knew as I was renovating three deckers in Roxbury during the seventies, the people I knew worked as hard as I did, were just as or more ethical. Were there jerks? Absolutely. I had one tenant that stiffed me for a year and a half rent, I still have the capias somewhere. That wasn't because he was black (in my current view) it was because he was an atypical jerk. I've never met a person who couldn't explain away the most horrible behaviors as justifiable. Everyone is the hero of their own life, don't you know. The admirable people, in my current view, are the ones who analyse their own behavior in the light of facts, such as they can get, and stomp good and hard on the bigotry they find in themselves. Best I can do, I'm afraid.

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by: xteeth @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 10:43:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No cheating (0.00 / 0)

Or minimal cheating. I think many people self-select out of the system because they can't afford it. But, because they can't afford it, after a couple of initial visits, they'll be back at the jobs that don't give them insurance and therefore probably pay for very little time off.

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by: JimC @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 11:23:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wasn't this one of the Obama-bashes? (4.00 / 1)

I seem to recall that a Republican meme was that Obama was going to force people to buy health insurance.  So now Judd Gregg wants to do the same thing?

Anybody with Lexis access want to check and see if Gregg made this attack? :D

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by: ThatTallGuy @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 09:27:38 AM CDT

fascinating (4.00 / 3)

I thought Gregg was all for "free markets." Now he wants to force people to buy a product that they don't think they need? If a Democrat said that, the Republicans would be going on endlessly about the "nanny state" and "lack of free choice of people to do what they want with their own money" etc. etc.

This of course does leave aside the point that lots of people can't afford "meaningful health insurance." I would be absolutely thrilled to be able to purchase the coverage Gregg has, at the price he pays, which we we the taxpayers have subsidized.  

Beverly Woods For NH State Senate

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by: beverlywoods @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 10:03:54 AM CDT

It's stunning the pretzel logic (4.00 / 2)

the GOPosaurs will bend themselves into to avoid a true public option.

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 11:47:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Conservatives are convinced that the purpose of government (0.00 / 0)

is to make people behave, using physical force if necessary and the church propaganda doesn't succeed.  So, making the purchase of insurance mandatory is entirely consistent.  Never mind that's not how our system of government is set up.

I will agree that people who feel they've been deprived will try to get some compensation wherever they can find it.  I do know of people who when their electricity was turned off went to the hospital emergency room with some complaint to stay warm.  Moreover, jails are quite aware that some street people get themselves arrested by being obnoxious for three squares and a bed.  But, you know, in the grand scheme of things that's peanuts.

Hardly anyone wants to be sick.  Moreover, when the sick aren't healed, the community suffers more than they do.  When a significant portion of a society is incapacitated or dies prematurely, the next generation doesn't get enough training and education to even maintain the current generation's achievements.  Why does humanity keep ending up stuck in a rut?  Because the accumulated wisdom doesn't get passed on.  How many of our current youth even know how to feed and clothe themselves and keep a roof over their heads?

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by: hannah @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 19:24:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey Lobbyist! Say Cheese. (0.00 / 0)

Check this out.
Turning The Camera Around: Health Care Stakeholders

When 22 senators started working over the first health care overhaul bill on June 17, the news cameras were pointed at them -- except for NPR's photographer, who turned his lens on the lobbyists. Whatever bill emerges from Congress will affect one-sixth of the economy, and stakeholders have mobilized. We've begun to identify some of the faces in the hearing room, and we want to keep the process going. Know someone in these photos? Let us know who that someone is -- e-mail dollarpolitics@npr.org or let us know via Twitter @DollarPolitics.

What's that cliche? Turn about is fair play?

www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 11:18:21 AM CDT

In my case, Gregg is correct. At 68 I qualify for Medicare but (0.00 / 0)

I haven't signed up because I refuse to participate in a segregated program.
Medicare as currently constituted violates the equal protection clause and I've no doubt that the support for "private" programs is related to the fact that the Constitution doesn't apply to individuals or private groups.  What's objectionable about public programs is their equality component.

And btw, Jack, equality doesn't apply to the recipient of a service; it applies to the service that's being delivered.  Think of it as comparable to a restaurant where every portion is the same, regardless of how hungry, old, or fat the diners are.  Conservatives want to be able to decide not only how much but who deserves to be fed.

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by: hannah @ Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 19:39:27 PM CDT

The restaurant metaphor (0.00 / 0)

"Conservatives want to be able to decide not only how much but who deserves to be fed."

If we follow this logic, I assume you mean:

That conservatives feel that each's portion is a function of contribution to the community, a social order based on quid pro quo.

Do you mean that each portion should be dispensed as a function of humanity, that all are created equal and therefore deserve the same benefit?

This "equality of service" works fine when your talking about road maintenance. It starts to break down when we discuss police and education appropriation and when it comes to welfare, either corporate or other, the game has shifted 180 degrees.

In the restaurant, I pay 5 bucks for the same burger that Bill Gates pays 5 bucks for. He may get better service because the server knows its Bill Gates.

But that $5 has two completely different values for the two of us.


www.KusterforCongress.com - www.paulhodesforsenate.com

www.nikitsongas.com - www.devalpatrick.com

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 11:12:22 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, that's why we shouldn't focus on the recipient but rather on the (0.00 / 0)

provider.  The recipients of police "services"--i.e. people who get arrested and thrown in jail--assign a negative value to something the community values very highly, especially if the police agents are professional and competent.

Elementary school students, for the most part, don't value the instruction and, indeed, the outcome is not able to be determined for many years.  Which, again, is why professionalism and competence are important.

With the exception of the health-obsessed, most people would rather be healthy than in need of medical care.  So, there's a certain reluctance to confront reality that needs to be overcome.  Also, since the ill can only anticipate being less sick, the benefit to individuals who don't catch what's going 'round because the ill were treated early, actually enjoy a greater benefit.  That they don't appreciate not getting sick is another matter.

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by: hannah @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 12:53:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

what's he got againt bikers? (4.00 / 1)

Ironically Gregg made his comment about "Those folks, they don't think they're going to fall off their motorcycle." just after New Hampshire's annual "Bike Week" (which is gradually expanding to fill the whole month of June.)  Most of those bikers were mature and relatively respectable citizens, and I suspect that most of them either have health insurance or would have it if they could have it.  (It is not just respectable citizens who ride motorcycles, admittedly: e.g., at least 3 members of the State Senate and 10 members of the State House of Representatives are riders.)

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Thanks for all the fish

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by: TimothyHorrigan @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 09:44:13 AM CDT

He makes no sense. Presumably, if bikers have accident insurance, (0.00 / 0)

their medical care for injuries is covered.  But, along with workmen's comp and the premiums associated with normal home owner's liability insurance, these other costs that could be eliminated, if we had universal coverage, are never even mentioned.

I don't think anyone's calculated the forgone value of economies of scale that could be realized if we got rid of all the duplication.

And what would be the effect on liability suits, if people's accidental injuries are taken care of without a lot of fuss and bother?  You want tort reform?  You got it with universal health coverage.

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by: hannah @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 13:00:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

good points hannah (0.00 / 0)

a great deal is never mentioned. Unfortunately, the hysterical have control of the health care dialogue.  

member of the professional left  

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by: susanthe @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 09:11:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You make a good point. (0.00 / 0)

Gregg made his comment about "Those folks, they don't think they're going to fall off their motorcycle." just after New Hampshire's annual "Bike Week"

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 13:36:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]