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I'll Leave Your Dead Relatives Alone if You'll Do the Same or... The Chutzpah Of Mormonism

by: susaninrindge

Wed Jan 25, 2012 at 18:55:08 PM EST


had forgotten this story until I read about again today

...The religious rite is proxy baptism for the dead. According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormon Church, these posthumous "blessings" are intended to "save" ancestors and others who weren't baptized in life or were baptized "without proper authority."

Any Mormon may baptize any person posthumously. Church members have performed the ritual on Buddha, Catholic popes, 9/11 hijackers, William Shakespeare, Joan of Arc, Elvis Presley, President Obama's mother and even reportedly Jesus Christ. In 2002, the managing director of the Mormon's family and church history department told The New Yorker magazine that as many as 200 million dead people had been baptized as Mormons.

The names of most were listed in microfilm records at the church's Family History Library in Salt Lake City and in 4,500 branch research centers. The Mormon Church has spent millions of dollars microfilming, indexing and cataloging vital records from everywhere to enable its mission. Its genealogical treasure trove of 2 billion documents, open to anyone with the patience to troll through it, is the largest in the world.

In 1994, an Israeli genealogist researching her family in the Mormons' computerized International Genealogical Index made a startling discovery. Her grandfather, a religiously observant Jew killed in the Holocaust, had been posthumously baptized as a Mormon. Distraught, she alerted other Jewish genealogists who soon learned that some 380,000 Holocaust victims, including Anne Frank, had been baptized. Plus, Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, and scientist Albert Einstein had received this treatment.

The church insists the deceased have "the right to choose" whether to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. But that hardly satisfied an outraged Jewish community. To them, the baptisms disparaged ancestors who were forced into ghettos, tortured in inquisitions, expelled from countries or murdered in pogroms and the Holocaust just because they were Jews.

"Baptizing is a very dirty word to many Jews," said Gary Mokotoff, a prominent Jewish genealogist who contacted church elders soon after the Israeli genealogist's discovery. "It reminds us of the persecution Jews had in the past where churches told Jews they had a choice: either convert to Christianity or be murdered."

"They tried to do something very difficult for Mormons to do, which was to stop the whole process of conversion," said Abraham Foxman, who lost 14 relatives in the Holocaust. As national director of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, Foxman took part in the negotiations.

Still, Mokotoff told The Huffington Post, "overzealous Mormons" continued baptizing dead Jewish martyrs.

Another good question for Mitt: What does he think of this practice. And, has he ever taken any action that is consistent with his answer. This practice, unlike polygamy, is actually done today. This not some "quaint" throw-back to the early days of Joseph Smith, this is happening NOW!

susaninrindge :: I'll Leave Your Dead Relatives Alone if You'll Do the Same or... The Chutzpah Of Mormonism
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Hold Mitt accountable for Mitt (4.00 / 4)
He's not campaigning to implement the specific teachings of Mormonism. His positions on social issues are in line with his party generally.  No matter what anybody thinks of Mormons, theirs is a widespread religion with millions of adherents who live as their fellow Americans do.  A Presidential election is not an appropriate forum to critique a candidate's religion.

--
Twitter: @DougLindner


Beliefs are one thing (4.00 / 2)
Practices are another and I find this practice deeply offensive. I think when a person decides to seek out one of the most powerful positions in the world, we have a right to know about potentially intrusive and abusive behavior.  

 "The future is not something to be predicted, it's something to be achieved,"  unattributed aphorism




[ Parent ]
Then ask him whether he does it or did it. (4.00 / 3)
Susan, I see your point, and I would not be happy to hear that a loved one was posthumously baptized in a religion to which she did not belong, but it's important to make sure we're judging Mitt for Mitt and not for everything followers of his faith do--or even everything in its canon.

If it's relevant to him personally, it's fair. What's not fair is asking whether America is ready for a Mormon President.  Governor Romney should lose on the merits.

--
Twitter: @DougLindner


[ Parent ]
The reason I bring this up (4.00 / 1)
Is that Mormonism is a very opaque religion to most non-Mormon Americans. I think many people are curious about what Mormons believe and practice. This post and the article I quote is a window into that religion.

I think anyone's beliefs, whether religious or secular, are worth understanding when someone runs for President. Surely anyone with any beliefs can run for POTUS. But we have a right to know as much as we can about what drives that person and Romney has said that his religion is a powerful force in his life.  

The position of President is so filled with pressure, I want to know what someone will turn to for guidance under that pressure. When someone claims his religion as a source of strength, I want to understand that religion as well as I can.

The practices described in this quoted article are abhorrent and they leave me wondering about issues such as respect for other religions, respect for personal/cultural/religious boundaries, boundaries between church and state, etc. I think these are fair issues to explore with any candidate of any religion.

 "The future is not something to be predicted, it's something to be achieved,"  unattributed aphorism




[ Parent ]
What he himself believes is fair game. (4.00 / 2)
I'm just not interested in the beliefs of others that he doesn't share, even if they're his religious leaders.

--
Twitter: @DougLindner


[ Parent ]
Well said, Doug (4.00 / 2)
Per Susan's diary, some would say the same thing about conducting ritual circumcisions of newborn babies. Or that it's a little far-fetched to believe that human beings walked on water or parted the Red Sea. . . . If you choose to hold public leaders accountable for ever tenet of their religions, it's a slippery slope.

Membership in the LDS Church did not prevent people like Mo Udall, Stewart Udall, Harry Reid, and Frank Moss from serving as proud Democrats and leaders on progressive issues. Nor has it prevented Reed Smoot, Jake Garn, Bay Buchanan, or Willard "Mitt" Romney from being lousy politicians with bad ideas.

As for me, I worked for Dick Swett on three New Hampshire campaigns over a four year period. Dick was (and remains) the only Mormon ever elected to the House of Representatives from east of the Mississippi River. He never discussed his religion with me. But we spent hours discussing clean energy, health care reform, gun control, the minimum wage, lobbying reform, and human rights at home and around the world.

Mitt Romney deserves to lose because he is the ultimate political prostitute, a man who will say or do anything to get elected, a man with no core. His religion is irrelevant.


[ Parent ]
I'm not just talking beliefs, I'm talking practices... (0.00 / 0)
First of all, people who choose to circumcise their male children do not try to do it to others when they are dead OR alive.

Romney was/is a church leader. He was called a "deacon" but, if I'm not mistaken, it's more like a bishop.

Also,I think it is precisely because Romney has no core that I worry about his Mormonism. Without a core, he just swallows whole the Mormon teachings, etc. He is such a poorly differentiated human being that he is ill-equipped to question his religion the way most educated people question and resolve their religious impulses. For Romney, without his religious beliefs, there's no there there. His religion is what he has when it comes to morality and I think that's dangerous. And my anxiety is not assuaged by hearing that his religion went after the souls of my relatives.

 "The future is not something to be predicted, it's something to be achieved,"  unattributed aphorism




[ Parent ]
Uhh.... (0.00 / 0)
I think it is precisely because Romney has no core that I worry about his Mormonism. Without a core, he just swallows whole the Mormon teachings, etc. He is such a poorly differentiated human being that he is ill-equipped to question his religion the way most educated people question and resolve their religious impulses. For Romney, without his religious beliefs, there's no there there. His religion is what he has when it comes to morality and I think that's dangerous. And my anxiety is not assuaged by hearing that his religion went after the souls of my relatives.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA -- uh, well, no, actually. You give him far too much credit.

I think it is precisely because Romney has no core that I worry about him. Without a core, he just spouts anything that serves his purposes at the time. He is such a fundamentally narcissistic and unempathetic human being that he is ill-equipped to question his lifetime of entirely shameless self-promotion the way most educated people question and resolve their selfish impulses. For Romney, never mind his religious beliefs, there's no there there. His personal advancement is what he has when it comes to morality and I think that's dangerous. And my anxiety is not assuaged by hearing that his entire celebrated business career consisted of going after the jobs of my neighbors and relatives.

There. Fixed that for ya.


[ Parent ]
You (0.00 / 0)


 "The future is not something to be predicted, it's something to be achieved,"  unattributed aphorism




[ Parent ]
Had a slip of the mouse there... sorry (0.00 / 0)
Agree that his opportunism trumps a lot. But the religious "stuff" does stand in for a "self" as well. What happens if he's serving as President and there's a decision he has to make where it's not clear where his personal/political interests lie. What well does he go to then for guidance?  

 "The future is not something to be predicted, it's something to be achieved,"  unattributed aphorism




[ Parent ]
Mitt will look deep into his heart and ask, (0.00 / 0)
"What would be best for rich people?"

[ Parent ]
The best response I ever heard to this: (4.00 / 1)
"They do what? Screw that -- next Sunday I'm going to my liberal church and gay-marrying Mitt's Grandpa to Mussolini."

[ Parent ]
Available on Amazon: (0.00 / 0)
Can Mitt Romney Serve Two Masters? by Tricia Erickson

Book Description
Publication Date: June 10, 2011
The information in this book goes much deeper than the unveiling of Mitt Romney's political record. For the first time in history, we could see a Mormon President at the helm. Do you have any idea what this possible next President believes? Why should his religious beliefs matter to you? When you get through Part I of this book, these questions will be answered. This is NOT a Kennedy Catholic moment. Mitt Romney's beliefs and convictions are so uncanny that you will most assuredly question his judgment to be in charge of the highest office in the land. If Part I does not shake you, Part II will, by exposing the reality of what Romney has "done" in his political career, versus the conservative façade that we are led to believe. Will his rhetoric match his deeds as President? One look at his record herewith will cause great concern.

Emphasis, mine.

http://www.amazon.com/Can-Mitt...


he was Gov of MA for four years (3.75 / 4)
his faith, as far as it goes, was a non issue... tread lightly. Even though I get that the LDS Church is against Marriage Equality, and has other beliefs like posthumous conversion that I find wrong, I side with kathy every time she pushes back on this. He is not running for national religious leader. Freedom of religion is our back bone.

My silly religio-political beef in all this? Why do all bills before the NE General Court denotes a bill's date as "The Year Of Our Lord". wtf? ain't my Lord...jes sayin'

note to close readers: this might be sarcastic so think twice before reading to candidates for use in their attacks on each other


These days, "Lord" (4.00 / 2)
probably refers to O'Brien.

November 2012
Hope for a return to sanity.


[ Parent ]
my mistake n/t (0.00 / 0)


note to close readers: this might be sarcastic so think twice before reading to candidates for use in their attacks on each other

[ Parent ]
The Year of Our Lord (0.00 / 0)
It's the literal English translation of Anno Domini (A.D.). Congress does it too.

Off the top of my head, I assume nobody used B.C.E. in 1789.

--
Twitter: @DougLindner


[ Parent ]
Tom Brady was born way later :-) n/t (0.00 / 0)


note to close readers: this might be sarcastic so think twice before reading to candidates for use in their attacks on each other

[ Parent ]
year of our bully n/t (0.00 / 0)


note to close readers: this might be sarcastic so think twice before reading to candidates for use in their attacks on each other

Know Nothing Much? (4.00 / 4)
So Romney is a Mormon. Get over it and lets talk about this fact that he "forgot" to list his offshore accounts on his federal financial disclosure. How Guinta-esque of him.

It wasn't very long ago that Catholics, particularly Irish Catholics, were attacked in this country for their Catholicism.  



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


Given how big a deal (4.00 / 1)
religion is for Republicans - so big that they try to force their evangelism into law - I don't think it's out of bounds to discuss it. THEY certainly do.

The Freebaglicans have filed some distinctly religious bills in NH this year.

HB 1148:
AN ACT requiring the teaching of evolution as a theory in public schools.
SPONSORS: Rep. Bergevin, Hills 17
Theory of Evolution. Require evolution to be taught in the public schools of this state as a theory, including the theorists' political and ideological viewpoints and their position on the concept of atheism.

Representative Bergevin wants to make sure that children learn that evolution/science is wrong, and that atheists are bad.

As an atheist I'm sick to death of hearing about all of the religions. I'm sick of the constant assertion throughout the world that believing in some magical story makes the religious superior to  people like me.

When I Occupied Dixville Notch on the eve of the NH Primary, I was interviewed by a writer from the Weekly Standard. We talked for a long time. He told me that he was an evangelical Christian, and that it drove him crazy that atheists were often better Christians than his folks. He's opposed to the destruction of the safety net. It was rare and impressive honesty coming from an admitted conservative.

Everyone running for office has to blather about their religion at some point - and Republicans never stop. No one confronts Rick Santorum, the bleating Christian, on the direct conflict between his Christianity, and his desire to end Medicare. No one confronted Rick Perry on his Christianity, and the level of poverty in his state. If you make your religion a big fucking deal, you should expect to have to answer for your own hypocrisy.

That said - Mitt doesn't make a big deal about his religion. His money, his lack of principle, even strapping the family dog to the roof is all fair game. His stupid comments about being unemployed - all of that is subject to ridicule. I don't choose to go after his religion, because he, out of all the GOP candidates, has the decency to shut the hell up about it.  


[ Parent ]
I think we mostly agree (4.00 / 5)
Just as I don't like going after someone's religion, I also don't like it when religion is injected into governance. I wish everyone would stop blathering about their religions or lack thereof and leave it between the individuals and their God(s) or lack thereof.  



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


[ Parent ]
He's scared to death (0.00 / 0)
to bring up his religion! He knows it would be at his peril.

 "The future is not something to be predicted, it's something to be achieved,"  unattributed aphorism




[ Parent ]
That's just wrong (4.00 / 3)
This reminds me so much of what I have read about anti-Catholic and other forms of religous prejudice. What religions do you find kosher?  



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


[ Parent ]
What's wrong, Kathy? (0.00 / 0)
That he's afraid to bring up his religion?  

 "The future is not something to be predicted, it's something to be achieved,"  unattributed aphorism




[ Parent ]
The lack of tolerance (4.00 / 1)
I'm still curious, what religions do you find "okay"?  



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


[ Parent ]
If Romney were a Muslim (1.00 / 1)
would you say that?  If Romney was a member of the KKK would you say that?  Get over it?

[ Parent ]
Excuse me? (4.00 / 6)
If Romney was a Muslim, more power to him. And as you know, the KKK has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with white supremacism.

Would you be questioning Romney's religion if he was a Congregationalist or a Unitarian?

Leave your religion or lack thereof out of my life, and I'll leave my religion or lack thereof out of yours. isn't that what tolerance is all about?



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


[ Parent ]
So, you're rquating Muslims with the Klan? (4.00 / 1)
This sort of thing is not productive.

[ Parent ]
Excuse me, but If the KKK has nothing to do with religion (0.00 / 0)
then why did they burn Christian crosses on the front yards of those they wanted to terrorize? The KKK may not be a religion per se, but they have had close ties to some who claim to be Christian.

Be honest,if Romney were a Muslim, I'll wager you would be only one of a handful of people who would not take that into consideration when considering him for office.  


They burnt the crosses (4.00 / 2)
because the KKK was originally anti-Catholic.

I tend to judge people by their actions and try to avoid making generalized assumptions based solely on my perception of their religion. In other words, this discussion offends me.


Can someone explain to me why, if they love the Constitution so much, the right-wingers keep introducing amendments to change it?


[ Parent ]
Do you have limits? (4.00 / 1)
Really. This is beyond contempt.  

[ Parent ]
So you think... (4.00 / 1)
It's ok to justify lack of tolerance for Mormons because of lack of tolerance toward Muslims?  Welcome to National Brotherhood Week, where we can all hate each other based on our respective faiths, including the faith of no faith.



"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    


[ Parent ]
Isnt' it nice (0.00 / 0)
that we live in a country where you can vote for whomever you want based on your evaluation of his qualifications, and others can do the same based to their evaluation of his qualifications.  At least I believe we still live in such a country, but perhaps we don't.

[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 2)
You have every right to express bigoted views.  

[ Parent ]
The greatest straw man in American conversation on any subject: (4.00 / 2)
When losing a debate, pretend that anybody who disagrees with you is trying to abolish your first amendment right to express your point of view.

--
Twitter: @DougLindner


[ Parent ]
So when I run for something (4.00 / 1)
I will be blamed for some the most extreme elements of the Opus Dei thing because I was raised a Catholic?

Romney's weird and out of touch enough without having to bring religion into it.

It's a free country. Separation of church and state, etc...

Social Media Director for Jackie Cilley for Governor. Follow her on Twitter & Facebook!


Not at all, but if you were Opus Dei (0.00 / 0)
that might mean re-consideration of your qualifications for a secular office.  But then I'm a bigot so my opinion doesn't count.  

[ Parent ]
If Mittens had grown up on a retro-Mormon compound (4.00 / 2)
where multiple child brides were allocated by a charismatic leader, then yeah, I'd call on him to make darn clear where he stood on that.

But being a member of the same much wider faith no more makes it appropriate to suspect him of malign religiously-generated intentions and require him to explicitly disassociate himself from the loonies who claim to share his faith than it is appropriate to demand of every black who dares to venture a political opinion that he vow eternal loathing for Louis Farrakhan, or of every Muslim that he vigorously denounce Al Qaeda in a manner acceptable to whatever audience he is addressing before daring to utter a syllable about anything other than the weather.

America is about lots of people living together peaceably while holding lots of different ideas, many of them incompatible, many of them ridiculous, many of them the plainest superstition and folly. The genius of America is that it does not arrogate to itself, or delegate to anyone, the right to say, "Your beliefs are dangerous, unfounded and irrational, and constitute too much of a threat to our republic for us to allow you to be engaged in its business; our beliefs, on the other hand, are not in the least unfounded and irrational, but are purely consonant with the most rigorous logic."


[ Parent ]

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