An "F" in School Funding

The Record (4.00 / 3)

Since 1992:

Democratic gubernatorial candidates who have explicitly endorsed broad-based taxes are 0-3 in general elections.  (And not one of those elections has even been close.  Not one.)

Democratic gubernatorial candidates have explicitly opposed broad-based taxes are 5-0.

I respect -- and agree with -- your position on tax fairness.  And I recognize that your vote for Ms. Forry is a protest vote, since her chances of defeating Gov. Lynch are about the same as my odds of seducing Natalie Portman tonight.  Nevertheless, I have to say. . . .  

Falling on our swords for an income tax has costs.  Big costs.  If, in the future, we lose the governorship on this issue (as we have in the past), we would be no closer to tax fairness -- and a hell of a lot worse off on environmental protection, health care access, civil liberties, and any number of areas in which the Shaheen/Lynch administrations have moved us forward during the past decade.

Make your choice.  But please don't imitate the Pledge perpetrators -- by demonizing those who see this as less than a black-and-white choice.  That includes Gov. Lynch.

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by: Dartmouth Dem @ Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 19:58:13 PM CDT

You have a point, (4.00 / 2)

but we also can't stay frightened and quake in our boots because of what happened in 1992, or even 2002. In 2002 we never thought we'd see a Blue Hampshire, either (and I don't mean this wonderful blog).

We can't keep letting the Republicans frame things and we can't keep letting the so-called NH "Advantage" Coalition be the only voice.

People I've been talking to like Lynch, but not "the Pledge". It's over, it's done. Let's let it die a natural death.

Now, I'm not necessarily supporting an income tax agenda. I thnk a good majority of people need to support something like that before changing the tax structure. But windows open at certain times where change is possible. And not to take advantage of that possibility for a progressive agenda would be a sad mistake.

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by: Jennifer Daler @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 06:40:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As I have commented/diaried before (0.00 / 0)

to me, it is the wrong pledge to make, and gives up to much power in the process.

Imagine...

" I pledge to do everything in my power to solve NH's 20 year struggle with education funding."

or how much more powerful position a governor would be in to say

"I think we can make our current tax structure work so long as there is a constitution amendment that allows us to target aid. There are other options as well but I think we should try this first."

Hope > Fear




Create a free Blue Hampshire account and join the conversation.

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by: Mike Hoefer @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 19:17:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

At best misleading. (0.00 / 0)

Since 1992:

Democratic gubernatorial candidates who have explicitly endorsed broad-based taxes are 0-3 in general elections.  (And not one of those elections has even been close.  Not one.)

You're covering up Shaheen's successful third run in 2000, when she refused to take the pledge. This appears to be the same position Forry has taken - willingess to listen to and negotiate with the legislature on revenue options. In other words, as Mike said, not taking the pledge.

This bit of truthiness is no help at all in discussing policy options intelligently.

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by: elwood @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 21:25:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Shaheen (0.00 / 0)

By 2000, Jeanne was pretty well known across the state as a broad-based tax opponent (which was my assertion above).  

Thus, imho, whether she took the Pledge or not  is irrelevant to a discussion of the tax issue's political impact.

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by: Dartmouth Dem @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 22:39:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not at all. (0.00 / 0)

Refusing to take the pledge explicitly changes that position.

The House had passed an income tax that then died in the Senate - a Governor's pledge was less theoretical than in her earlier runs.

John Lynch has also built a reputation as an opponent of broad-based taxes. I believe he could have followed Shaheen's lead this time and easily won.

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by: elwood @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:27:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let's tell the whole story (0.00 / 0)

in 2000, Governor Shaheen was re-elected with less than 48% of the vote against a woefully unacceptable opponent. Governor Shaheen wasted precious resources in the primary and out entire ticket suffered for it. We lost the presidency by 7,000 votes and the state senate by a grand total of less than 400 votes.

Do we really need to do relive this again?

2012 starts today.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:17:46 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

A bit more: (0.00 / 0)

Here's the data. Shaheen got 48.7%.

You and I may agree that Gordon Humphrey was "woefully unacceptable" but he had won two statewide elections as U.S. Senator before retiring undefeated - he was no lightweight.  Suggesting that Shaheen was only vulnerable because she refused to take the pledge is... speculative.

The suggestion that her refusal to take the pledge tiled the election to Bush is laughable.

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by: elwood @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:50:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not funny at all. (0.00 / 0)

Elwood, you seem to forget that I was the person running the NH Gore general election effort. I think I have a bit more information and knowledge about the situation and yes Governor Shaheen's numbers had a direct result - laugh all you want - but it is true and sure as heck not funny one bit to me.

2012 starts today.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:24:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm wondering how one could quantify this. (0.00 / 0)

I really haven't seen this claim before - that the Shaheen gubernatorial campaign may have cost Gore a win in New Hampshire and thus the Presidency. I've seen Nader's role cited frequently but not this.

We could compare Shaheen's share of the vote to 1998, but she was running against unknown Jay Lucas then - not a two-time statewide winner.

We could compare turnout to the most recent non-incumbent Presidential race, but we would have to decide whether high turnout helped or hurt Gore and Shaheen. And 1992 doesn't compare well to 2000 anyway - different demographics in the state.

I certainly believe that the people running the day-to-day campaigns have the richest store of anecdotes and the strongest knowledge of the impact that short-term tactical decisions made. I'm not at all convinced that they have any especially useful perspective on the broad currents of a race.

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by: elwood @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:04:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Wasted precious resources in the primary" (0.00 / 0)

In 2000 Gordon Humphrey also had a primary with two serious opponents.

Ray, you seem to dislike primaries. In other states and in the other party they are seen as standard operating procedure.

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by: elwood @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:05:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not true. (0.00 / 0)

Plenty of primaries going on across the state and in Hillsborough County and Manchester in particular.

I do however, take a elections seriously - because they have consequences. I don't think it is a laughing matter at all.  

2012 starts today.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:20:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, please Ray. (0.00 / 0)

You don't have the power, formally or informally, to stop primaries. The fact that they occur doesn't show that you like them.

Your words show that you dislike them. "Wasting precious resources" convincing Democrats to vote for you. The horror!

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by: elwood @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 18:16:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Your sarcasm is unwarranted (0.00 / 0)

And your condescending attitude is wearing thin. Why do feel is necessary to always insult?

2012 starts today.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 21:14:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stop it, the two of you. (0.00 / 0)

Time for some self-policing by the community and that includes me.

We have reached the point where the two of you butting heads serves no puropose. It is neither insightful or instructional.

I'll spare us all the preachy stuff I just deleted.

Save it for another day and topic, please.

Whack-a-mole, anyone?

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:02:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This made me laugh (in a good way). (4.00 / 1)

From the Monitor article:

In 1976, when Mel Thomson was governor, Forry penned a cartoon parody book called King Empty's Secret. (Empty, emmmmteee, MT, Mel Thomson, get it?) She had testified several times in Concord on various education laws and felt her words were having little effect. So she pulled up her typewriter in her kitchen and wrote the story.

...The book tells the story of King Empty of Ham, who runs his kingdom on property and sin taxes. "His coldness was felt / By the youngest of serfs / Who sighed as their grandmas / Were taxed off their turfs," goes one line.

The book climaxes when a little girl comes to King Empty and "read him the law / Then said, 'Educate Me.'" That puts the king in a fit of rage, "LAW! PSHAW! Screeched the King, / YOU CAN'T EVEN VOTE!"

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 20:07:07 PM CDT

Aaaaannnndddd.... (0.00 / 0)

I just found a copy of it online and snagged it.

Huzzah!

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 20:46:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Arrrgghhh.... (0.00 / 0)

Abebooks just cancelled the order, saying the book wasn;t available.

I bet someone snatched it up in person after reading that article.

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 14:51:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I found one (4.00 / 1)

and snagged it.

Neener neener :)

sanctimonious purist/professional lefty

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by: susanthe @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 18:54:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, (0.00 / 0)

we'll I'll show you :)

It's been 24 hours since my second try and I haven't received an email cancellation yet.

I'm going to do a happy dance when this thing arrives.

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 20:53:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I just got mine! (4.00 / 1)

It's wicked, wicked cool - a sardonic masterpiece.

Neener neener :)

sanctimonious purist/professional lefty

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by: susanthe @ Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 16:24:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Frist! (4.00 / 1)

You won the derby.  But another day, and no news that I'm not getting it.

Please Mr. Postman...

One of us should email her and ask if we can scan some pages in to post on here.

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 19:34:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I hope you get it (0.00 / 0)

you're going to love it. I'd love to see Ms. Forry post here, if she's inclined.  

sanctimonious purist/professional lefty

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by: susanthe @ Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 20:13:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Put me down as a Forry supporter too. (4.00 / 2)

Primary challenges are one of the few levers we have in this system, we are stupid not to pull it if there are major issues being swept under the rug.

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by: Mike Caulfield @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 11:46:24 AM CDT

This is a very interesting situation. (4.00 / 1)

If enough people learn about Forry, and the one thing they know is that she's for a different way to do ed funding on the one hand...

...and on the other her candidacy does not rise to the level of an actual challenge,

then the day after primary day we might have a better understanding about how deep is the desire to think more broadly on this issue.  

birch, finch, beech

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by: Dean Barker @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 14:50:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I like your comment, "I've taken a pledge too ... off the table." (0.00 / 0)

That was a cool reply especially in its political context.

And I agree with your statement.  Revenue is critical to any state and who knows what will be necessary in the future.

On the positive side, I say things are going to change.  Democrats have had enough.  We DO owe Bush that!  He has forced people to get active or give up.

And I don't give up ;-)

Nick Arancio

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by: NickInTheHouse @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 16:50:32 PM CDT

If this tax issue (0.00 / 0)

is going to be the defining one in the primary, John Lynch has my vote. I can't live in a border town and support a sales tax. And I reject the idea that passing an income tax will be a matter of tax fairness so long as we continue to have local government needing to fund itself. It will be a burdensome tax that will be added on top of all the existing ones. Plus, given that we enjoy a relatively high quality of life without an income tax, most people view not having one as something of a relief.

I think Lynch has been a competent administrator and generally approve of his governorship, but his quick move to kill the Fontas-Edwards marijuana decriminalization bill and his appointment of former Nashua mayor Bernie Streeter to the Pari-Mutuel Commission begin to put me in a position where I might consider my options in the general, which perhaps indicates that I'm a little bit more discontent than you guys.

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by: Alex Gallichon @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 19:18:25 PM CDT