Kucinich Goes Nader, Calls for Recount

Very impressive (4.00 / 3)

I was blown away by the clarity of the knowledge of NH voting patterns and history. I hope that person is a NH Democrat. Very impressive.

As I posted elsewhere, I encourage Nancy and her friends to attend the recount and observe every minute of it...it is fascinating - in fact, I encourage everyone to go.

Democrats solve problems, Republicans sit and say no.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 06:10:57 AM CST

to finish my thought.. (4.00 / 9)

Each candidate on the ballot gets one person at the recount table for every two person SoS team. So there will be plenty of opportunities to either assist the Kucininch campaign as a participant or represent any of the other candidates on the ballot.

As someone who has done recounts for thirty years, it is a very interesting process - plus, once you have done it once you can do it again and I may need you after the November elections!

Democrats solve problems, Republicans sit and say no.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 06:15:13 AM CST

The stupidity and dishonesty of the Bev Harris crowd (4.00 / 2)

really gets annoying. Sufficiently annoying that I took time this morning to run some crosstabs.

One of their fundamental claims is that the difference between Obama/Clinton votes is suspiciously correlated to whether a town uses optical scanners.

Scanners play no role in party registration.

Party registration is also "suspiciously correlated" to the use of scanners.

In towns using hand counting, 22% register as Democrats, 48% as Undeclared.

In towns using Diebold scanners, 27% register as Democrats, 42.6% as Undeclared.

Those Diebold scanners are more insidious than Bev knows! They actually exert a mind-control effect, convincing more voters to become Democrats!

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 06:58:06 AM CST

Quick! Ship 'em all to Ohio and Florida! n/t (4.00 / 4)

www.KusterforCongress.com  

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 07:00:49 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Keene (4.00 / 4)

had same day voter registrations on Tuesday:
291 republicans
1197 democrats

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by: Kathleen O'Donnell @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:19:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I work at the polls. (4.00 / 4)

I did in the 2004 primary, too.

There was a big increase in the percentage of people registering as Democrats, rather than registering as Undeclared then taking a Democratic ballot.

(Of the first forty new voters we registered, two took Republican ballots. And the registered Undeclared.)

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:27:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Numbers! I want numbers! (4.00 / 2)

I am most interested to to hear actual totals from each town. Anyone with specific totals please send them to me.

Democrats solve problems, Republicans sit and say no.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 09:31:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

other observation (0.00 / 0)

I saw many people who were stuck with repub ballots and wanted to take a dem ballot and were disappointed- That was sad to watch!

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by: Kathleen O'Donnell @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 09:36:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I've heard of two voters in this situation (0.00 / 0)

Both would have preferred to vote for Obama. One voted McCain (Anti-Romney), One wrote in Obama on the Republican ballot.

I wonder if this could explain some of the Polling gap? Maybe 1%? Perhaps the campaign should have been pushing a "If you think you may want to vote for Obama change to "U" by MMM/DD."

Hope > Fear



Create a free Blue Hampshire account and join the conversation.

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by: Mike Hoefer @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 11:21:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The dealine was October, IIRC n/t (0.00 / 0)

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 11:25:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

In New Boston (4.00 / 1)

One of the poll workers told a voter to write in the democrats name in the write in section on the Republican ballot and it would be counted.  Ugh.  Don't think that's right?

Any word on how many of the 2,000 + write ins on the Republican ballots were Democratic candidates?

Feeling hopeful since 2004...

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by: Kelly Nordstrom @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 13:47:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It always counts! (4.00 / 1)

Even though the vote does not count in the totals for delegate selection, it does count as a preference vote, and counts as terrific p.r. for the D's!  No vote is ever wasted; it is an expression of choice that matters.
Eventually, the SoS will have the write ins posted on its site (to the extent that any one person has more than a few, the handfuls are included within "other", I believe).

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 13:59:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I still want to know how many people wrote in Al Gore for VP, as Ray suggested. (0.00 / 0)

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 14:35:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Town totals (4.00 / 2)

Ray this breaks it down by town and county.
http://www.sos.nh.gov/presprim...

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by: fugitiveblue @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 15:54:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It will, later. (4.00 / 2)

The numbers Ray wants, I believe, will appear on the "Ballots Cast" and "Names on Checklist" links from that page.

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 17:03:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I knew it n/t (0.00 / 0)

"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 09:30:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This is silly stuff. (4.00 / 4)

    I yield to no one in the alacrity with which I reflexively reach for my tin foil hat; I testified before the Ballot Law Commission against the certification of the Diebold machines; and I think that the outsourcing of vote counting to a private corporation without any adequate security controls is both insanely reckless  and a violation of at least five separate provisions of the NH constitution.
  I also was deeply engaged in the legal voting protection effort of the Obama campaign and was deeply disappointed that the Clinton machine was able to forestall their inevitable defeat by tying us in the number of delegates received from NH. (Unless of course, you also consider the Edwards delegates which establish a clear change majority. :)
  BUT this is nuts and a waste of good energy that should be devoted to continuing the struggle for change and, even worse, will detract from efforts to re-institute public control over the counting of ballots. The disparity between the hand and machine count results is easily explained by the demographic differences in the places that choose to count differently. It would be a far odder result if results in large urban communities exactly mirrored those in smaller rural towns.
    The article in Brad's Blog that is linked holds out as a highly suspicious relationship the fact that the results in hand and machine counts are exact inverses:
   

Analysts at the Election Defense Alliance (EDA) have confirmed that based on the official results on the New Hampshire Secretary of state web site, there is a remarkable relationship between Obama and Clinton votes, when you look at votes tabulated by op-scan v. votes tabulated by hand:

   Clinton Optical scan 91,717 52.95%
   Obama Optical scan 81,495 47.05%

   Clinton Hand-counted 20,889 47.05%
   Obama Hand-counted 23,509 52.95%

The percentages appear to be swapped. That seems highly unusual, to say the least.

    Highly unusual indeed and impossible to be the result of anything other than chance unless you believe that vote rigging villains had a time travel machine. In order to program the machine to match the hand count outcome you would have to know exactly how the people in the hand-count towns were going to vote before they did so. The results in the machine count places were available way before the hand counts which take far longer to do-- so how did they manage to get it exactly right, and why would they bother to get it exactly right.
     

"But, in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." Si se puede. Yes we can.  

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by: Paul Twomey @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 07:25:35 AM CST

But for this comment... (0.00 / 0)

I would have given you a four!  

I also was deeply engaged in the legal voting protection effort of the Obama campaign and was deeply disappointed that the Clinton machine was able to forestall their inevitable defeat by tying us in the number of delegates received from NH. (Unless of course, you also consider the Edwards delegates which establish a clear change majority. :)

Only one more delegate for Obama out of Iowa than for Hillary!! And, voting for Hillary is voting for change!
Byt he way, the Barnes and Nobles in Manchester does not have the Allen Raymond book in stock; do you know where I can buy a copy this weekend?  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:11:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Raymond book (4.00 / 1)

Kathy, it's on the front table at Gibson's in Concord in a big stack.

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by: michael57 @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 12:46:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Amazon (4.00 / 1)

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 13:00:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks! (4.00 / 1)

I like the idea of getting it from a local book store.

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 13:08:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That's good too. (0.00 / 0)

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 13:11:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

amazon? (0.00 / 0)

How does that get her the book this weekend?

Lordy.

Shop local. Amazon is in frickin' Seattle. How many people are proud to belong to their local co-op but are also glad to send their dollars to Amazon? There's a disconnect there.

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by: michael57 @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 13:55:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Gibson's in Concord n/t (4.00 / 1)

"Poetry is not an expression of the party line. It's that time of night, lying in bed, thinking what you really think, making the private world public, that's what the poet does." Allen Ginsberg

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by: JonnyBBad @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 17:45:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My favorite conspiracy theory is from (4.00 / 3)

the late, lamented SPY Magazine. During GHWB's term they noticed:

George Bush was head of the CIA in the early 1970s.

At tha time there was a show on television named Mission: Impossible. Two of its starts were Peter Graves and Peter Lupus.

Barbara Bush has recently been diagnosed with Grave's Asthenia. The Bush dog Millie suffers from Lupus Erythematosis.

Coincidence?? You be the judge!

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:13:32 AM CST

[ Parent ]

On the tie.. (0.00 / 0)

This website came my way. It tracks the super delegates.
http://demconwatch.blogspot.co...

Advantage Clinton. However, Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC) may be leaning Obama due to shitty Clinton/Penn campaign tactics.

www.KusterforCongress.com  

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by: Jack Mitchell @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:59:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I would expect the very high number of superdelegates to go primarily to whomever is the presumptive nominee. (4.00 / 1)

If we aren't fortunate enough to have a presumptive nominee by Denver, that will be an interesting factor.

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 13:01:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I strongly support a vote audit (4.00 / 9)

We should definitely audit some of the counties with a machine counted vote.  The entire reason for using the optical scanner is to have a paper trail.  Now that we have that trail, let's use it!  In my opinion there should be regular audits of the process regardless of the outcome to insure its integrity.  This should be standard practice in every state.  That way we  could conclude based on real statistical data whether or not the system is working correctly.  

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by: implicit hope @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:27:51 AM CST

So do I. (4.00 / 11)

It's a simple QC measure. After each election select maybe 5 precincts and random and do a hand recount.

And don't limit it to scanner precincts. Have rested workers recount some of the precincts where tired pollworkers did the counting late at night.

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:31:50 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Update-- (0.00 / 0)

Officials in N.H. agree to recount primary vote

By
Associated Press / January 12, 2008

CONCORD, N.H. - New Hampshire officials agreed yesterday to conduct complete hand recounts of Tuesday's Democratic and Republican presidential primaries.

Representative Dennis Kucinich, who received less than 2 percent of the Democratic vote, and Albert Howard of Michigan, who received about 40 votes in the GOP primary, each paid a $2,000 fee to start the process, officials said.

Both candidates agreed in writing to pay the full cost of the recounts, Secretary of State William Gardner said. Both could back out when they get the estimates, expected next week. Deputy Secretary of State David Scanlan said recounts could start Wednesday.

Kucinich cited "serious and credible reports, allegations and rumors" in requesting the Democratic recount. Howard did not explain his request. In a letter Thursday, Kucinich said he does not expect significant changes in his vote total, but wants assurance that "100 percent of the voters had 100 percent of their votes counted." Kucinich alluded to online reports alleging disparities around the state between hand-counted ballots, which tended to favor Barack Obama, and machine-counted ones that tended to favor Hillary Clinton, who narrowly defeated Obama.

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by: hannah @ Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 05:49:52 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm mixed on this (4.00 / 1)

There is a real concern about electronic paperless voting, and that the company that makes those made the optical scanners, but I think it's widely supported that paper ballots counted by optical scan is the best system in balancing efficiency and integrity.

I think there's been some ridiculous exaggerated comparisons (mostly by Ron Paul folks) between these surprising results and Kerry in Ohio 2004. Even with all the polls leading up to election day, the results were consistent with the exit polls, and even if there was some credible reason to doubt the results, there would be no advantage to Obama not accepting the results, as 9 delegates each out of over 4000 is not worth the risks of appearing to discredit the Clintons. The NH primary is important, but it's not pivotal in a way that would be worth fighting over.

That said, I like to see the process being checked, and I'm glad Kucinich is doing this and the GOP candidate whose name I forgot (very minor candidate), because it strengthens faith in the process if its open and double-checked.

I don't think anyone from any campaign thinks anything was done wrong intentionally or expects recounts to change the results (except some Paul people who really think they beat Giuliani)

Go 'Bama!

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by: alexwill @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 08:35:58 AM CST

An auditable system is no good (4.00 / 5)

If it's never audited.  Paper ballots are good.  The program in the tallying machines can be "fixed" so that, for example, every tenth vote for one candidate is switched to another.  If the only thing that's done is to compare the number of ballots issued with the total votes cast, this shift doesn't show up.  If there were a tabulating problem in the machinery hardware, then the shift might show up in all positions.  One of the peculiarities uncovered in Ohio was that a downticket candidate for a local judgeship got unexpected votes while the presidential race showed up lots of no votes (an anomalous situation but one that is easily programmed).  The other thing to remember is that computers can be programmed to substitute another program after the first is run.  In other words, the "fixed" program can erase itself.
Local election officials have no access to the software program.  They test the machine by running through ten or a hundred ballots.  But, the "fix" can be programmed to start after any number (1 or 100+) ballots have been run through.

It's still my considered opinion that the actual theft of votes in Florida in 2004 took place in the Democratic majority counties where everyone was happy that Democrats "won" just not by the expected margins.  For the results to make sense, one has to believe that most of the people who were recently registered as Democrats (new registrants) ended up voting Republican.

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by: hannah @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 11:02:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

All Important for Kucinich Recount: The Election-Day Ballot Order (0.00 / 0)

I don't not live in New Hampshire, so I need a question answered.  Ballots in machine-counted districts for the Democratic Primary - did these have candidate names printed on them?  Or were they instead generic optical scan machine cards that contained circles to fill in (and thus were simply inserted into static templates with candidate names in the voting booth)?

If there were no candidate names on the ballots, Houston, we have a problem.

If as indicated in the EDA data (http://www.electiondefensealliance.org/) the machine-counted Obama/Clinton votes were flipped with one another at some point during tabulation, this may be to VERY EASY to hide during any recount.

Optical scanner ballot position swapping --which is what appears may have occurred in New Hampshire-- is an insidious and effective form of election fraud, because to rig any recount all one need do is mislead the recount workers as to the original ballot order and the paper ballots will merely serve to reinforce the original theft.  All that one need do is post a fraudulent candidate ballot order at the recount office and all you earnest hand-recounters are now unwittingly enlisted as accessories to the original fraud.  Basically:

HE WHO RECOUNTS DECIDES NOTHING: HE WHO MARRIES CANDIDATES TO ROWS ON RECOUNT BALLOTS DECIDES EVERYTHING

The only way to prevent this is to obtain confirmation from actual voters in machine-counted districts to verify (from memory, sworn affidavit, public records, or if possible with actual copies of the election day ballot templates) the original candidate order against what the recount workers are being told.  It has been noted in the major media that Obama was near the bottom of the ballot (as one explanation for the curious result), but again this needs to be verified.

DOES ANYONE HAVE COPIES OR PHOTOGRAPHS OR ANY OTHER MATERIAL THAT WOULD DEMONSTRATE THE ELECTION DAY DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE BALLOT ORDER IN MACHINE-COUNTED DISTRICTS?

If not, and if the ballots do not have candidate names on them, cancel the recount because it's worse than a joke.

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by: Bongo @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 15:05:07 PM CST

The candidates were listed in alphabetical order by last name. (0.00 / 0)

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by: Douglas E. Lindner @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 15:16:34 PM CST

[ Parent ]

They had candidate names on them. n/t (4.00 / 1)

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by: Laura Clawson @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 15:16:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So much misinformation. (4.00 / 1)

You can see a Dem ballot here (pdf). The names are printed on the paper ballot.

The EDA data is widely discredited.

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 15:19:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Names on ballots (0.00 / 0)

There were names on the ballots.  

"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."  Franklin D. Roosevelt    

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by: Kathy Sullivan 2 @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 15:28:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not enough attention has been paid..... (4.00 / 1)

to the integrity of our election process.  IMO any election where the victory is by less than a five percent margin ought to be subject to an automatic audit.

While we're at it let's make sure that a paper trail is required in NH as a matter of law.   My bad if that's already the case (I don't know).

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by: andys120 @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 19:46:30 PM CST

Yes, it is. (4.00 / 1)

Please do some homework before handing out directives.

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 20:20:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There Is A Paper Trail (4.00 / 1)

Thanks to Nashua State Representative Jane Clemons, who is also Chair of the House Election Law Committee -- and incidentally a Vice Chair of the State Democratic Committee and a proud supporter of Hillary Clinton -- there IS a paper trail.

With legislation she sponsored and I cosponsored, paper ballots are REQUIRED in all voting in New Hampshire, and those must be kept and used if a recount is requested.

We must use paper ballots here, and the only role of machines is to tally the vote -- scanning the ballots not unlike SAT scores are tallied.  These machines are mostly very accurate and the "errors" which occur come from reading the "intent" of the voter where the machine cannot determine a ballot not properly filled out, or if there are extra marks accidentally written onto the ballot by the voter.  That's why in recounts we often see a very few ballot totals change, and in a very close election the results can change.  Of course, that can also happen on previously hand-counted ballots.

Other states have touch-screen technology which can indeed be confusing, and then there are those hanging chads.  I'm confident that thanks to Clemons bill and the integrity of the Office of New Hampshire Secretary of State, we'll see the recount verify the percentage accuracy of the results.  

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by: Rep. Jim Splaine @ Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 07:59:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Denver Cabbie (0.00 / 0)

When I mentioned to my cab driver last evening that I was from New Hampshire the young man responded "That's the place with the suspicious voting earlier this week."

Ugh. Nothing about the record turnout, nothing about the history being made.

My friends quickly outed me as the NH Chair and changed the subject to the Denver Nuggets game we just attended (the Nugget's mascot recognized Governor Dean in the crowd and became quite excited, he told him that he was a proud Democrat!).


Democrats solve problems, Republicans sit and say no.

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by: Ray Buckley @ Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 10:20:13 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Expert Analysis (4.00 / 1)

According to the experts in a Globe story today, the results are upheld by historic evidence; Gore, Kerry and Clinton all did better in urban areas like Manchester that have machines, Bradley, Dean and Obama all did better in towns:

Lenski said it's all of a piece: Education, income and age -- factors that influence voters' candidate choices, also play into where they choose to live.

"We see those patterns in the vote, we see those patterns in the exit poll. It's not surprising we'd see those patterns when we looked at the types of equipment used because it's not randomly assigned, there are reasons why certain towns use paper ballots and certain cities use machines," Lenski said.

Manchester, for example, New Hampshire's most populous city, is largely working class and uses machines at its 12 polling stations. Clinton won there Tuesday, just as previous winners Kerry and Gore did. The small White Mountains towns of Franconia, Sugar Hill and Bethlehem, which hand-count ballots, all went to Obama as they did for Dean in 2004 and Bradley in 2000.

"Clinton, Kerry and Gore all seem to have a similar profile in New Hampshire. Their voters in New Hampshire were older, less likely to be college-educated and had on average lower incomes. For Dean and Obama and Bradley, they're most likely to have college degrees or postgraduate education, they're most likely to be younger and they're most likely to be higher income and higher educated," Lenski said.

Interesting.  
 

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

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by: Kathy Sullivan @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 19:50:36 PM CST

Yes, I saw that today, (4.00 / 2)

and kicked myself for not adding "Bradley" to "Dean-Obama" and "Gore" to "Kerry-Clinton" in the post above.

I'm fascinated by this dichotomy, as well as how Romney beat out McCain in the southern part of the state also.

Are there two types of Republicans in NH based on region as well?

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by: Dean Barker @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 20:23:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Romney (0.00 / 0)

There is definitely an economic split in the NHGOP. Not so sure about the geography, but it is a good question.  

   

Energy and persistence conquer all things.


Benjamin Franklin


 

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by: Kathy Sullivan @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 20:35:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes. (0.00 / 0)

In the sixties it was Rep. Louis Wyman, former red-baiting AG in the 1st, and Rep. Jim Cleveland, defender of red-baited teachers, in the 2nd.

Recently it was Jeb Bradley in the 1st and Rep. Bass in the 2nd.

Bruce Keough (2) took on Craig Benson (1).

The UL used to write incessantly about the "Concord Gang." Walter Peterson of Peterborough is the Dean of the Concord Gang today.

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by: elwood @ Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 20:55:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]